The sooner people get over attributing all good to God and all bad elsewhere, and take responsibility for both themselves, what a wonderful world this would be...

I'm not sure it would make that much difference when you look at the big picture. Would proving or disproving the existence of God change the ratio of good to evil in the world? Perhaps establishing proof of either would cause a redistribution of good and evil among the population. Good people might be extra good and bad people might be extra bad. I think the balance would remain about the same.

---

That's an example of sociopathic behavior not normal, healthy pursuit of one's passions. I believe most people will avoid extreme antisocial behavior (evil) whether they believe in God or not.

Yup, animals do do a lot of things that would be considered sociopathic if they were done by humans. Probably a lot of things we do seem sociopathic to many animals. Oh well, different species; different rules. I still do believe pleasure is a powerful motivational force that is common to all animals from bugs to people.

Anti-social? Who determined "social" (pro-social?) behavior is the right way to exist?

No I do not think life is utterly pointless. Exactly the opposite.

I'll keep asking until you give a clear answer. Is life utterly pointless. This should either be yes or no and if you want to clarify that with what you think that's fine. I think you don't want to answer this question brother, because you know what's coming when you do.

"You're forgetting one of God's covenants towards every soul is free-will. He cannot and will not control anyone, whether you're religious, evil, or otherwise."
And yet he will control letting evil people into heaven if they repent and believe.
He will control good people perishing because they do not believe.
He controls you by threats. Believe and worship or burn in hell.
He apparently knows what you think, has access to you mind, and makes his decisions accordingly.
No control huh?
Well, there goes that point.

You don't understand things at all. I cannot judge anyone spiritually, nor should any Christian judge someone spiritually. That's part of the benefit between each of us has with our maker. That relationship is between you and Him.

The Bible. Another non provable aspect of religion that has more holes in it that Swiss cheese. It is bewildering to a non believer that any time or credence is given to this piece of text that can be ripped to shreds logically over and over and over.

Well that's certainly true. And there is a whole lot of questionable materials in the Bible. However what you're not thinking about is the Bible being a best attempt at man to exist something greater. Maybe things happened that were in the Bible, maybe some of it was stolen from other religions, maybe some of it was made up. Maybe it's the best attempt man is capable of defining that relationship with our Creator? Think about it this way. You have a Kawasaki Service Manual for your bike. The person, or people, that wrote that manual know the bike inside and out. Yet there is still a lot subject to interpretation of exactly how to do things.

Now, consider the complexity of working on a motorcycle with the complexity of trying to understand our relationship with a diety. We're lucky that books not a couple million pages compared to a 1200 page motorcycle service manual.

I'm not sure it would make that much difference when you look at the big picture. Would proving or disproving the existence of God change the ratio of good to evil in the world? Perhaps establishing proof of either would cause a redistribution of good and evil among the population. Good people might be extra good and bad people might be extra bad. I think the balance would remain about the same.

You have to understand good and evil are spiritual concepts. If there is no God or higher power, then good and evil cannot exist.

Again, just because you deem something good or evil doesn't mean someone else does. There's still cannibalistic tribes in which no thought at all is given to consume a person. That's not even anti-social behavior, that's their norm.

Who makes the rules pro-social behavior is the one true correct way? If it's a group of people, who says they are any more correct than one? Is there such a thing as good and evil or are these just make believe too? Is life utterly pointless or not?

Who makes the rules pro-social behavior is the one true correct way? If it's a group of people, who says they are any more correct than one? Is there such a thing as good and evil or are these just make believe too?

Society does. Social norms and mores. We all determine what is good or acceptable behavior as a society. An individual can't do absolutely ANYTHING if they wish to exist within our society. Some people may break norms and that's not so bad but mores such as non-cannibalistic dining, that you cannot break in our society without some serious repercussions. There are different societies and they may have very different moral standards. Is one society's set of morals better? I guess not. Should we then allow conflicting social values into our culture? No. Should we as individuals seek to impose our social norms on another culture? I guess not unless not doing so threatens our own society. It really comes down to opinion and we're back to our own society creating criteria for dealing with other cultures' morality. Majority rules, I guess or whoever has the most power. Could our culture experience a major shift in social norms and mores? Sure, it's certainly happened before and usually at the cost of war.

Is life utterly pointless or not?

I'd say "not". Whether God exists or not, I want to do what I am good at because that gives me pleasure. It is also imperative that my efforts are valued by some part of society or else why do it? It sure would be nice if people would mention my name around campfires for generations after I'm gone but if they don't, that's ok as long as what I do has the support of some group of people right now. I guess when I no longer able to do anything of value to anyone, life will be pointless. That could be years of pointlessness, I know. All good things come to an end. Suffering and loss just plain suck but that's a part of life. It happens to believers and nonbelievers, alike.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/28/2015 @ 7:21 PM *

---

"No I do not think life is utterly pointless. Exactly the opposite."

"I'll keep asking until you give a clear answer. Is life utterly pointless. This should either be yes or no and if you want to clarify that with what you think that's fine. I think you don't want to answer this question brother, because you know what's coming when you do."

Vic, you are so mindfucked defending your religion and God with made up personal opinions and ridiculous analogies with zero facts and proof that you cannot even see a straight answer when you are given one.
I know you are not use to clear and concise responses when it comes to religion but my response includes a definite "No" as you asked and kicks you in the face with it's straight forwardness.

Even your religious boys are not going to defend your ineptitude on this one...

"You don't understand things at all. I cannot judge anyone spiritually, nor should any Christian judge someone spiritually. That's part of the benefit between each of us has with our maker. That relationship is between you and Him."
You are not having a good day at all are you Vic?
I said God controls and judges and you say you or any Christian should not judge?

Mate, read and absorb whats being written before you respond.
And either get off the drugs you are on or change the type or dosages...

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/28/2015 @ 7:44 PM *

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" If there is no God or higher power, then good and evil cannot exist."
Fucking religious bullshit!
Prove it.
Show me why man cannot morally have good and evil without God?

Arrogance at its best.

Come on Vic. You are so sure of yourself.

I also notice you and your religious mates pick certain thing I write but ignore others that make too much sense and cannot be argued.

So here's one for you I wrote before seeing you believe if there is no God there is no good and evil.

Tell me one thing, just one thing that is good that religion has achieved that mankind alone could not?
There are countless horrific things done in the name of religion only but I'm not asking about those because we all already know the answer to that one right...

Come on mate.
What do you have?
And remember, proof and facts in your answer.
Not fairy tales...

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/28/2015 @ 7:47 PM *

---

Yanman says..."if God is the only way"...well...that's what I'm kinda trying to say...He ISN'T the ONLY WAY.No one HAS to believe in God.God doesn't say...you MUST believe.He only said.."believe,and don't doubt".He didn't say..."or else".Christ told His disciples...Thomas anyway...
"Touch me and feel...thrust your hand into my side"(where the spear was pushed through)..."does a spirit have flesh and bone as I do?".He didn't say..."do it or else buddy".He left the decision up to Thomas.He only wanted to give Thomas the opportunity to have hope.That's basically all.So Thomas could walk a Spirit filled life with confidence.

"then why cant we all "taste it"?
Why only some?"...and that's ONLY coming from one's own ideas about "God".The TRUTH is...we ALL can.It's not 'only some'.Everyone can take the taste test.

It's wide open for anyone.Yes...even murderers.God looks on the heart...sees the need.Knows the future and what's ahead.He's judging by that...not against mankind.The stop sign ahead painted on the road is neither moral or judging.It's ONLY warning...that's all.Follow it...avoid a crash.Run it...take your chances.Same with God.No different.It's not a moral judgement against mankind.It's the stop sign ahead...follow it...'this is what I freely offer'..disregard it...take you chances...I won't butt in.

Trying to say.."a God of Love wouldn't allow certain things" is really a HUGE sticking point for many.Logically...it holds water.But 'logical' thinking isn't always solid.It just isn't.How about..."God would rather have each person be responsible for their OWN lives,what they do with em".The tools and such He's presented.Man keeps taking the monkey wrenches.Not God's fault.

In all honesty,there will be no peace in this world.There will be murders,rapes,abuses.It will continue until God's return.When the time has come.But individually people CAN make a difference.NOW.We want things 'better',but we still want it our way."Our way" doesn't work.Has never worked,and WILL never work.We just THINK it will....so we keep doing what we're doing...and getting the same results...and it's somehow supposed to be 'up to God' to change it.He's gonna change it....in His time.In the meantime...believers are striving to make the world 'better'.And not just believers either.There's MILLIONS of non-believers doing good.

Will God look fairly upon these?I honestly can't say.He says..."you must be saved"(for our own good).Okay...I accept that.Because He said so.I'm not here to judge 'right or wrong' for God.I'm here to follow...as best I can.So far,I've certainly not been led astray from ANY good stuff in MY life.Pain included.

It hurts to read about ugly stuff going on with people.It's terrible what people do to others.But honestly...it's man's decisions.That's all I can say about that.I don't blame God.I'm responsible for my actions...not God or anyone else.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/28/2015 @ 7:46 PM *

I'll just toss this out there...IF there is NO God...then any discussion of "God's Morality" is pointless.All these terrible things going on have NOTHING to do with a 'god'.So being angry at something that is'non-existent' is really pretty silly I think.'God' can't possibly be blamed for 'right or wrong' if He doesn't exist.(in some minds).A person wants to believe there isn't a God...yet he strives to 'prove' that all the BAD going on is God's fault.I'm just not seein the logic in this.We want a scapegoat...someone to take the blame.We don't want to take responsibility.

At least own up to this...God or not.At least the 'power' to do something different will be squarely back where it belongs...where one really wants it...back to oneself.Assuming one DOES want to feel his life means something,and he at the helm,making it happen.Who DOESN'T like feeling he's accomplished something worthwhile somewhere along his life?I think everyone seeks this.At some level.

It takes real courage to trust and follow God.It does.It isn't for the faint-hearted.Just ask the multitudes of people who've given their lives for this faith.And I don't mean..ISIS..or suicide bombers and such.I mean genuine,loving people.Givers.Helpers.Self sacrificing in the face of certain death.That takes heart.LOTS of heart.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/28/2015 @ 8:09 PM *

Society does. Social norms and mores. We all determine what is good or acceptable behavior as a society. An individual can't do absolutely ANYTHING if they wish to exist within our society. Some people may break norms and that's not so bad but mores such as non-cannibalistic dining, that you cannot break in our society without some serious repercussions. There are different societies and they may have very different moral standards. Is one society's set of morals better? I guess not. Should we then allow conflicting social values into our culture? No. Should we as individuals seek to impose our social norms on another culture? I guess not unless not doing so threatens our own society. It really comes down to opinion and we're back to our own society creating criteria for dealing with other cultures' morality. Majority rules, I guess or whoever has the most power. Could our culture experience a major shift in social norms and mores? Sure, it's certainly happened before and usually at the cost of war.

Society? What's society? What authority does society have?

I know you are not use to clear and concise responses when it comes to religion but my response includes a definite "No" as you asked and kicks you in the face with it's straight forwardness.

Prove it. Just as you demand I prove God exist prove live is not utterly pointless.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 11/28/2015 @ 8:07 PM *

" If there is no God or higher power, then good and evil cannot exist."
Fucking religious bullshit!
Prove it.
Show me why man cannot morally have good and evil without God?

What is good and what is evil? Who's that judge? You? Rook? A society of you and Rook? Me? Me, you and Rook? We are the 3 in a society that determines what is good and evil? What about Jeffery Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy? So you, me, Rook, Grn, Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Obama, and Hillary Clinton all get to form a society and determine what's exactly good and what's exactly evil and everyone has to follow our guidelines on what they can and can't do?

* Last updated by: VicThing on 11/28/2015 @ 8:15 PM *

"Prove it. Just as you demand I prove God exist prove live is not utterly pointless".

Hmmm...this should be interesting.I've never really looked this direction before.Should be fun...I'll just throw this in there...who gets to decide what's 'pointless' and what isn't?...Carry on!;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/28/2015 @ 8:14 PM *

These 'discussions' really are uplifting to me.In a day and age where 'secrecy' is so much a part of the human existence..talks like these really DO bring out the truth.Strange as that may sound.Hell...I'm all in;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/28/2015 @ 8:21 PM *

Come on Vicky boy.
You've dodged the question yet again and tried to throw it back onto me.
Again...
Tell me one thing, just one thing that is good that religion has achieved that mankind alone could not?
There are countless horrific things done in the name of religion only but I'm not asking about those because we all already know the answer to that one right...
And when you are done with that one I have countless more.
Just read my entries here.
You know where you may struggle a little?
No one in the history of mankind has been able to answer the questions I have unless its with faith, opinion, suggestion, question or blind acceptance because they were either taught or told to.
Notice the words proof and logic do not appear in the last sentence.

I have said it a hundred times.
Believe what you want. Its your right. No one should tell you what to believe.
Not even me.
But dont give me non logical unprovable points that insult my intelligence to support your views.
Especially when they involve me and belittling human beings.
All because you and others think you have an imaginary Lord and Saviour you cannot prove exists.

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/29/2015 @ 4:59 AM *

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I never attributed all good things to God. You are assuming everything I post is defensive. If your view on life is what's depicted in your posts, I do feel sorry for you. If you're just making a point, then fine. If you believe that the end of life is nothingness, then I assume you don't believe in a soul, or spirits. Let me preface these experiences with the fact that I don't care what you believe, or don't believe. I am just telling these as proof, in my mind, that there's something beyond what we see. I wish I was as articulate as the rest of the posters on this forum, but that's another story.
I had an uncle that I was fairly close with, but rarely saw. I hadn't seen him, or even thought about him for a couple years. One night, at 3 AM, I saw him in my sleep, clear as day, looking at me. It wasn't like a dream. It was different. I felt something like an electric current that woke me up. I looked at the clock, and planned to go back to sleep, but I was too wired. At 8 I went to work thinking it was just a weird dream. That night my dad called to let me know my uncle had died sometime the night before.

On a trip to colorado, a friend and I were riding in the mountains. I was in the lead, and we were pushing it. I came to a sharp, blind right hand corner, and had my bike cranked over hard at about 60. It was about the 30th curve we'd been through, long drop offs, and we were having a blast. Suddenly I felt cold and panicky. I hit the brakes and tried to stand the bike up as much as possible in the curve for traction. I was down to about 30 when I saw a cut in the road about 6' wide, full of gravel, across both lanes. No sign or warning, mountain to the right, guardrail and dropoff to the left. I straightened the bike out, crossed the gravel, and leaned hard into the curve. My buddy was amazed. He said it was a good thing I saw the gravel and braked because he was looking at the scenery, and wouldn't have seen the gravel. I never told him what happened.

I was in a bar one night with a few friends. I was never in this bar before, but my friends knew the bartender. We heard a crash, and yelling. 2 guys were about to have at it. The bartender ran around the bar, grabbed one of them, and took him outside. The other guy sat back down with his friends. I was standing at the bar talking, and had a sudden urge to take a step back. Just as I did, the guy was right there. I had no idea he had gotten up and was heading for the door. There was no way for him to get around me, and I was twice his size, so he just looked at me, turned, and went back to his seat. The bartender was just walking back in. He came up to me and thanked me. I asked him why, and he said the guy he took outside was crazy drunk, pissed, and had a gun. If I hadn't stopped that guy, he would have probably gotten shot.

I have about a dozen more just like that. I get an urge, a feeling, a sense of panic, a need to do something specific, or even a wave of calm. Sometimes it makes sense afterwards, and sometimes it doesn't. I don't get the chance to think about it. It happens, and I react. A guardian angel, watchful spirit, higher power, esp, I chose to give thanks in prayer every day. You're right. Being a good person has nothing to do with God or religion. An evil person will do evil things. The reason they give is meaningless. The evil is in their hearts, and they'll find a way. The same with people with good in their hearts. The reason they do good is meaningless. It's in their hearts, and they'll find a way.
The original post was how do we deal with terrorists. It's extremely hard to turn the other cheek. It's hard to fight evil with peace and love. Ghandi is credited with saying he likes the Christian religion, but Christians don't act like Jesus. Jesus didn't fare well. If we all offered our hands in peace, would there be any good people left?

---

Still feeling sorry for me huh?

Okay. You want to continue this, let do just that.
Lets look at some anomalies in your stories that might just tell us a little about your judgement.

"I saw him in my sleep, clear as day, looking at me. It wasn't like a dream."
So you saw him in your sleep but it wasn't a dream?
Gold, pure gold...

"I was in the lead, and we were pushing it."
"He said it was a good thing I saw the gravel and braked because he was looking at the scenery"
"Bike cranked over"
"Long drop offs"
"Pushing it"
But your mate was leisurely looking around at the scenery and not the road huh?
So were you pushing or looking at the scenery?
Two actions that done at the same time don't really correlate wouldn't you say?

"I was standing at the bar talking, and had a sudden urge to take a step back. Just as I did, the guy was right there. I had no idea he had gotten up and was heading for the door. There was no way for him to get around me"
Well call me crazy but why couldn't he pass where you had just stepped back from?

So three stories with gaping holes.
Sure you got them all correct?
Or perhaps a little bit of embellishment to make a point.
Not very well I might add.
The other dozen stories you have. I certainly hope they are not as flawed as these three?
There goes the credibility mate...
But that does make you a natural candidate for religion and God so at least you have answered one thing for me.

At least my remarks are factual, thought through and I can 100% back each and every one of them.

So please take your patronizing sorrow for me and perhaps look in the mirror and dish some out to yourself.
Sounds to me like you can use all you can get...

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/29/2015 @ 7:25 AM *

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You are right Green.
This can be uplifting...

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/29/2015 @ 5:33 AM *

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LOL!

Lets not forget the middle leg of religion slide up some poor child's rear end. A house of perverts to assemble and circle jerk in the name of the stick man. LOL... yes, very uplifting is lift up her skirt and oh look, pre-pubic-essence ... and was there not someone in the news the other day was a 'man of the cloth' raping some child as in the legacy presented?

The perpetual lure of the gay handed down from one century to another and the perversion, the money the pope hides to feed the starving? No, but to spruce up the offices. It just shows you how sick the followers are and continue to monetarily feed the penis-cult.

Sure sounds like some sick perpetual push to keep the myth flowing out the end of a penis, down the leg of some poor child. You sick motherfuckers! And you wonder why I hate mankind.

---

Come on Vicky boy.
You've dodged the question yet again and tried to throw it back onto me.
Again...
Tell me one thing, just one thing that is good that religion has achieved that mankind alone could not?
There are countless horrific things done in the name of religion only but I'm not asking about those because we all already know the answer to that one right...
And when you are done with that one I have countless more.
Just read my entries here.
You know where you may struggle a little?
No one in the history of mankind has been able to answer the questions I have unless its with faith, opinion, suggestion, question or blind acceptance because they were either taught or told to.
Notice the words proof and logic do not appear in the last sentence.

I have said it a hundred times.
Believe what you want. Its your right. No one should tell you what to believe.
Not even me.
But dont give me non logical unprovable points that insult my intelligence to support your views.
Especially when they involve me and belittling human beings.
All because you and others think you have an imaginary Lord and Saviour you cannot prove exists.

I've not dodged anything. I've admitted I cannot prove God exist. I've admitted that I cannot judge what will happen to anyone else except myself in the afterlife.

You're admitting you can't prove life isn't utterly pointless without using things which can only come from a higher authority than man itself (man = man, God (higher power) > man) that for example we are all equal and have human rights. From the empirical side of things we're even up.

I had an uncle that I was fairly close with, but rarely saw. I hadn't seen him, or even thought about him for a couple years. One night, at 3 AM, I saw him in my sleep, clear as day, looking at me. It wasn't like a dream. It was different. I felt something like an electric current that woke me up. I looked at the clock, and planned to go back to sleep, but I was too wired. At 8 I went to work thinking it was just a weird dream. That night my dad called to let me know my uncle had died sometime the night before.

I had experienced something very similar to this when my grandmother passed away. I was sleeping (at home) but witnessed it happen, to the people in the room, the actions they took. For example, I knew they actually had to stop her heart from beating because her blood pressure had dropped to 0/0, but her heart was still beating due to her having a pacemaker. Keep in mind, I didn't know this was how it would happen where as we normally think people die they stop breathing and their heart stops.

There is that relationship, a connection, people have with each other that exist. People feeling pains of family and friends, and sensing something has happened. This is nothing I can prove empirically but is it is evidence to those of us that believe that we are more than just electromechanically animated rocks.

And you're rigth about Yannih being defensive, I definitely see the same thing in his arguments.

"The Lord shall have them in derision..the Lord shall laugh at them..seeing how He hath confounded them"('Laugh at' meaning...like one would laugh at their child,over some childlike boneheaded move).

Man thinks he knows all about 'God'...he's woefully in the dark.Even believers only see things at a surface level.God is unspeakably beyond words to describe.No human can get the complete picture.Not even close.

"My ways are not your ways.My ways are past finding out".

"Who is man,that he may instruct HIM?".Judgements against God are so....profoundly silly.

"God,grant me my wishes"....instead of..."Thy will be done".No wonder things are as they are.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/29/2015 @ 9:22 AM *

I've gotten through about half of this mornings posts here and I'm LingMAO. Very good, passionate writing, fellas. I'm not sure I can address every good point here without sitting at the computer until noon.

Society? What's society? What authority does society have?

So you, me, Rook, Grn, Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Obama, and Hillary Clinton all get to form a society and determine what's exactly good and what's exactly evil and everyone has to follow our guidelines on what they can and can't do?

LOL It's a little more complex than you me, green and Hilary Clinton. It's all people in Westernized Countries who determine the morals of society. Yeah, there's a lot of variation within that huge culture but the most basic moral standards are the same. If you don't want to follow the basic moral code, you are persecuted and imprisoned if you are caught. OK, there is some ambiguity in certain situations: investment fraud seems to be tolerated pretty well and there must be some other "serious crimes" that go unpunished. Cannibalism, murder, rape....those things are not tolerated. Although I will concede certain members of society seem to escape justice on these crimes because of their wealth or power, it's not accepted that what OJ or Micheal Jackson probably did was ok, they were just not proven guilty. That's a whole nother direction though. By and large, we all follow the same rules and I think we all like it that way, at least as far as the most serious moral standards go. If we don't, we live a life of evading the law and imprisonment.

"Prove it. Just as you demand I prove God exist prove live is not utterly pointless".

I guess that would be a personal opinion that could not be proven without hooking up a pointless meter to yannih's brain. It would seem there is no way or reason to prove life as a nonbeliever is meaningful any more than proving life as a believer is meaningful. Was that the point? Good point, if so. All we can do is tell you our opinion of the meaningfulness of our lives.

No one in the history of mankind has been able to answer the questions I have unless its with faith, opinion, suggestion, question or blind acceptance because they were either taught or told to.
Notice the words proof and logic do not appear in the last sentence.

These 'discussions' really are uplifting to me.In a day and age where 'secrecy' is so much a part of the human existence..talks like these really DO bring out the truth.Strange as that may sound.Hell...I'm all in;)

I think we're getting further from the TRUTH but closer to an understanding of one another.

There goes the credibility mate...
But that does make you a natural candidate for religion and God so at least you have answered one thing for me.

This IS pretty much like our private court room.

I have about a dozen more just like that. I get an urge, a feeling, a sense of panic, a need to do something specific, or even a wave of calm.

Some people seem to have a very acute sense of danger. It might be God. ..or it might be good survival instincts. I also have a story of the paranormal. Those things are difficult to use as proof but certainly are good evidence for personal beliefs.

So please take your patronizing sorrow for me and perhaps look in the mirror and dish some out to yourself.
Sounds to me like you can use all you can get...

In the past, I've often wondered about the motives of the Freedom From Religion group. I mean, what's the problem with public support of religion? Religion is a good thing, isn't it...even if you don't believe in God? For some people who do not believe, being force fed religion and feeling like an outsider if you stand up for your beliefs is pretty objectionable. Freedom from religion is a reaction against being coerced to participating in religion. It's standing up for equality. I don't have a problem with public recognition for religion but I must admit, it has been a bit uncomfortable at times when you're expected to share brotherhood in a group and you know you are really not a part of it and actually somewhat opposite. So why not have public support of non-religion?

10 AM. I'm outa here.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/29/2015 @ 9:25 AM *

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"I think we're getting further from the TRUTH but closer to an understanding of one another"...I think we're getting closer to the truth and closer to understanding each other.

The idea that there's a HELL is appealing to me(but not for the sake of seeing or knowing people are suffering).Just as the idea of a Heaven.Why not?God isn't keeping anyone in the dark.He's been telling people down through the ages..."Look out ahead...there's a cliff comin up".If God is who he says He is...it'd be nothing to create either place.God's the judge...knows what's in peoples' hearts.Naked.Totally stripped of the outside facade.Wickedness towards others demands judgement.Just as kindness demands it.And I do believe God in His infinite mercy and love has a plan.But He is 'angry' at the deeds of wickedness.He knows who's who.There is a payday coming.That's what I believe."God is angry with the wicked everyday"...that means...the ways of wickedness...not the people.He knows men are sick...soul sick.They couldn't do the things they do and be otherwise.That's the reason for Christ.To enter into the heart...to clear it of the virus so to speak...to start a clean slate.Going in the right direction.To remove the fear of death.The fear of a judgement.A Pardon.If your sitting on death row...the granting of a pardon is a pretty good feeling.God offers this...full on...complete.Some see it,some don't.But it's always there.Until one's time runs out.Asking a believer to prove the existence of God is silly really.You feel it.You see it's actions.You KNOW it's real...for yourself.It makes sense.It makes life worth living...really living.You see GOD all around when it happens..this 'faith' that is.You can't draw a picture of it.You can't put it in a bottle and show it on the shelf.But it's there...real.

An 'unbeliever' doesn't see this.Sorry...they just don't.I know...I didn't always believe either.That doesn't in any way make me better than someone else.But it will change my life direction in my thinking and my doing.I'm the ONLY one that will have to face God at the end of my life.Just me and God.It'll either be''"Welcome thou good and FAITHFUL servant,enter in to the Joy of thy Lord"...or..."Depart from me,I never KNEW you".That will be a terrible and wonderful event.I choose now where it's gonna end up.I do.Not religion.Not anything or anyone else in this life.No one can stop me from reaching my final destination but ME.God made the rules...I try to follow.And I don't follow perfectly.That's for sure.I leave the "look how terrible things are,change it God" to "what can I do to change things".Right here,right now..in my own little life.

I simply can't believe that every human being at some point in their journey hasn't considered.."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...not necessarily in those words...but the concept.

Just as they say 'Goddammit'.If there wasn't SOME sort of internal connection there with 'God'...then why would that flow so freely from people.Why not say...'Catdammit'...or something.Something's going on below the level of consciousness.That's what I think anyway.And then there's the Jesus this or Jesus that.Exasperation.Man asking God...WTF?Just WHERE does that come from?People all over this world say that..in some form or another.Some never been inside a Church or read any spiritual things.It's coming from somewhere.Somewhere inside.This pull to find...'connection' with something greater than ourselves.I believe this.Only because I've been there.EVERYONE gets there at some point along the way...hopelessness.Fear.Fear of dying.Hoping.Hoping SOMETHING is 'out there'that actually cares.Wanting answers.Hoping for a response to their living problems.And that's GOD.Offering.Prompting.Working unseen behind the scenes.Ready.

"When the student is ready...the Master will appear"...that's pretty much it.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/29/2015 @ 10:48 AM *

LOL It's a little more complex than you me, green and Hilary Clinton. It's all people in Westernized Countries who determine the morals of society. Yeah, there's a lot of variation within that huge culture but the most basic moral standards are the same. If you don't want to follow the basic moral code, you are persecuted and imprisoned if you are caught. OK, there is some ambiguity in certain situations: investment fraud seems to be tolerated pretty well and there must be some other "serious crimes" that go unpunished. Cannibalism, murder, rape....those things are not tolerated. Although I will concede certain members of society seem to escape justice on these crimes because of their wealth or power, it's not accepted that what OJ or Micheal Jackson probably did was ok, they were just not proven guilty. That's a whole nother direction though. By and large, we all follow the same rules and I think we all like it that way, at least as far as the most serious moral standards go. If we don't, we live a life of evading the law and imprisonment.

A society only consist of individual people. A group of people is no more right than an individual. I'm sure you'll disagree with that statement.

Throughout history a society has made up it's mind another society should be eliminated. This sometimes actively, sometimes passively. Sometimes it's been putting a people to death, sometimes enslavement, sometimes it's resources or starvation, etc. Nazi Germany. Sudan. Myanmar, Cambodia, USSR. Millions of people died because society said it was the right thing to do. Passively, a society in one form or the other (globally, nationally, intercontinentally, locally, etc.) still allows for millions of people to die every year.

But this is OK BY YOU. Because by you we are just animated electromechanical rocks in which other than eating, shitting, and fucking and maybe some really lame attempts at pleasure if society says so then it must be right.

I realize the futility of this example, but I think it would literally take society to deem that you personally, what if for whatever reason should be put to death? Obviously you'd disagree with society, but society would be right because the majority support it. You'd plead to understand why, and maybe the only answer is "because that's what we want and what we want is right."

The scale doesn't matter, it's still just one person's "morals" against another's. A society is still only a person. If everyone as a society determined that you (Rook) should be put to death would that make it right? No, what that's called is

You're saying we're getting further from the truth, and to some point I agree. But that's for a reason, it's to make a point that either we have basic human rights based on a higher power, or we don't and life is utterly pointless and has no inherit value other than eating, shitting, and fucking and some lame pursuit of pleasure in between those 3 things.

I guess that would be a personal opinion that could not be proven without hooking up a pointless meter to yannih's brain. It would seem there is no way or reason to prove life as a nonbeliever is meaningful any more than proving life as a believer is meaningful. Was that the point? Good point, if so. All we can do is tell you our opinion of the meaningfulness of our lives.

These are not the same thing. I can't prove God exist to you. However my belief that life is NOT utterly pointless is based on that belief. A higher power made us and all of creation. I don't know why exactly, therefore all life is valuable because it exist for some reason even if I don't understand it. That's the basis as understanding every person's life is valuable and they have the basic human right to exist.

If you believe we are nothing but animated electromechanical rocks and when it's "lights out" everything we know and and experienced ceases then who cares if someone kidnaps you and chops your arms, legs, and head off. Sure society may not have agreed. It's not like after the act is over, you're left in eternal pain. You have no pain, you have no joy, you have no existence. At that very point how you lived or died had no point at all, you never existed anyway. You were nothing but an animated electromechanical rock, no different than a rock out in your garden. What happens to you personally or impersonally, is inconsequential because at some point there will be no one to remember anyway. If the only value of your life comes from another person, then you have no value at all because another person could say your completely invaluable.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 11/29/2015 @ 11:07 AM *