"no one has ever actually seen or heard"...you mean...YOU'VE never actually seen or heard.Anyone(again)here seen Joseph Stalin?Or Adolph Hitler?Guess cause we haven't actually seen em...they didn't really happen.

As to the above comment on forgiveness and who gets it,God looks on the heart.Anyone can commit terrible acts...and think at the 'end' they can just simply mouth some words and 'get by'....it doesn't work that way.The thief on the cross was honestly sorry...not for himself...but that Christ was being killed for doing nothing but good.This made the difference.

Course,all this means ZERO if a person just simply doesn't believe it.'There is no God...no Christ..no nothing'.Which is totally fine...if that's what someone wants to believe.Everyone believes in something.EVERYONE.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/21/2015 @ 8:14 AM *

Have to interject something here, someone mentioned that being unfaithful or eating pork is
grounds for death to Christians, what you are quoting is probably some rabbinical law from
the OLD COVENANT or OLD TESTAMENT, Christians do NOT believe this, Christians follow the
NEW COVENANT or NEW TESTAMENT, and NO WHERE in the new testament does it say to put to death
someone for anything, with the coming of Christ, the OT laws and works are wiped out,
Jesus paid the price for sins with His death and resurrection, Just had to make that
correction, you still don't have to believe it if you do not want to, but that is what
the NT teaches ... Just needed to clear that up ..

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"no one has ever actually seen or heard"...you mean...YOU'VE never actually seen or heard."
No. I mean NO ONE. You haven't and nor has anyone else in the history of existence. Apparently this is because if you do see God, you will die.
A lovely little cop out to cover over no human ever being able to see God.

"Anyone(again)here seen Joseph Stalin?Or Adolph Hitler? Guess cause we haven't actually seen em...they didn't really happen."
This comment does not warrant my time or response.

"The thief on the cross was honestly sorry...not for himself...but that Christ was being killed for doing nothing but good. This made the difference."
Thanyou for proving my point.
The criminal, Ill say that word again, criminal on the cross goes to heaven because he believes.
But the guy not on the cross because he is a good descent human being who for what ever reason chooses not to believe will burn in Hell.
You are simply saying that the number one priority in our lives and existence is first and foremost to worship God (on bad evidence).
A very distant second is being a good and descent human being to ourselves, our families and our fellow man.
Yep. Very moralistic...

"What you are quoting is probably some rabbinical law from
the OLD COVENANT or OLD TESTAMENT, Christians do NOT believe this, Christians follow the
NEW COVENANT or NEW TESTAMENT"
Well now hang on. The Old Testament is the original word of God. Are you saying he got it wrong and a revision was required? Are you saying God is not perfect?
See this is classic religion.
"I don't like the Old Testament teachings where God advises to take slaves, kill your neighbors, eat pork and die. And people are starting to question whats written. So what the heck, lets change the word of God into the New Testament where it doesn't have so much disagreeable content."

Religion is the way, the truth and the light.
But only when its convenient.
And if its not, well we'll just change it...

Gentleman, you believe what you will.
Its your right and I respect that.
But your arguments are all based on one thing and one thing only.
Faith.
So here's a little challenge for you.
Put your faith to the test.
"For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7
Word of God here right?
Now go to the busiest freeway you know, put a blindfold on, and with your strongest faith step out into the traffic.
Lets see how far your faith gets you...

That's it.
Perhaps you may have an ever so small inkling on where I stand on all of this.
No more needs to be said on this from me.
It is what it is and we will all believe what we believe.

But from one motorbike rider to others, all the best to you guy's regardless.

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/21/2015 @ 3:40 PM *

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Yannih your test isn't valid. You're also not supposed to tempt faith. God can only help those that help themselves.

What you don't understand is their are contracts Christians have with God. Better named covenants than contracts but contract might help you understand faster. These covenants are a "I do for you, you do for me" sort of thing.

One of these covenants is you have free will. God made us so powerful that we have free will to even deny the very existence of God himself. It would almost be fair to say, God couldn't even deny His own existence. One key to keep in mind, God doesn't exist by our rules and limitations where there is only one way or the other.

Another of these covenants is God cannot control a human. Or to say God can't possess a person and make them act Godly, this imposes on one of the rules he created for us and himself. We all have free will to be stupid if you want to. Blindfold yourself and walk onto a highway? God's not going to do anything about it. God will try to help prevent you from doing so, but once you've made that sort of decision you're on your own.

"God will try to help prevent you from doing so"...yep...by having someone install road barriers...signs...intelligent thinking.
There are stories all over the world where 'divine' intervention happened in many people's lives.It's not uncommon.Neither is it chance.

Just saw a video of a guy getting shot in the stomach by some guy with a submachine gun.Guy fired once...other guy dropped.Guy walks up to him and points it at his head...pulls the trigger...nothing.With that,he recycles the breach...fires again...nothing. Gun refused to fire.Chance?I wouldn't call it that.It had bullets...and was cycling the rounds out the chamber.

Yannih your test isn't valid. You're also not supposed to tempt faith.

A belief not based on truth. People think they'll win the lotto is how stupid are they? Oh, someone has to win, but you lose with the odds alone. Boy, do I have a high speed corridor for your eyelids.

God can only help those that help themselves.

Sounds like common sense roundeye type confucius sayings. Do unto others anshit is another one.

What you don't understand is their are contracts Christians have with God.

Now it gets weird. Was your lawyer present?

"I do for you, you do for me" sort of thing.

More eye for an eye shitspeak. Every culture has their own sick whack.

that we have free will to even deny the very existence of God himself.

See, atheist is a bad word trying to jump out of that loophole. The catch22 is saying you 'deny the existence' is to even think there is something to deny. Got that concept?

God couldn't even deny His own existence.

Lame logic follows is that catch22 all over again.

God doesn't exist by our rules and limitations where there is only one way or the other.

You mean a sort of ying-yang, light switch is on or off is the universal 2-step. Live-die anshit. 1's and 0's kind of universal 2-step. So you brought up the myth to rule out if it exists or not, right? Or did I bring that up as an example?

this imposes on one of the rules he created for us and himself.

Who would want some scumbag human around when there are other pretty things on earth is wait a minute, this is how your idea was created was with physical pain and a will to survive the elements?

We all have free will to be stupid if you want to.

You said it not me.

Blindfold yourself and walk onto a highway? God's not going to do anything about it.

Nor any other think you pray for is keep thinking, keep perpetuating the myth and now live withishit you're in with a perpetual jihad at both ends.

God will try to help prevent you from doing so, but once you've made that sort of decision you're on your own.

Sounds like justifying robbing the cookie jar. Make up any story and it becomes the truth, right? What the fuck are you scared of dying for? It's sort of inevitable? And to think you'll live in a hot climate or have 72 skin layers LOL

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Well now hang on. The Old Testament is the original word of God. Are you saying he got it wrong and a revision was required?

The birth of Christ was pivotal point in Christianity. I don't understand the reasons why but after Christ was born, all the rule had to change.

Gentleman, you believe what you will.
Its your right and I respect that.
But your arguments are all based on one thing and one thing only.
Faith.
So here's a little challenge for you.
Put your faith to the test.
"For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7
Word of God here right?
Now go to the busiest freeway you know, put a blindfold on, and with your strongest faith step out into the traffic.
Lets see how far your faith gets you...

You don't have to do that. Just follow the rules for tithing. If you do, you will receive tenfold in return and God says you are allowed to test Him on this. I did. Needless to say, has not worked for me. I got poorer for a few months and gave up that tithing business. I did recently buy a Christmas wreath I couldn't afford from one of the kids at school. That was because I wanted to support there cause---whatever it was. I'm hoping $200 will unexpectedly show up because I need a new computer.

God can only help those that help themselves.

As far as I know, that was a Ben Franklin quote, not Bible. The Bibl tells us we SHOULD rely on God, not ourselves. 'Ask and it will be given.'

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'Love your enemy'
'If your enemy strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other.'

NOT.

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We are dropping over 2,000 bombs per day over there. The Russians are bombing. Now, so are the French. I'm sure the Brits, Aussies, Turks and others are getting their licks in.

Wonder how many innocent people die on a daily basis? To the survivors of the dead innocents, who exactly are the terrorists?

Trump is an idiot. He claims he will build a "beautiful" wall on the Mexican border and make the Mexicans pay for it. Hogwash. He claims there are a million Americans looking for work. Nonsense. He claims he will create jobs, but when asked how, he replies, "Well, I just will." Utter bullshit. The only bigger clown out there is Dr. Ben "'The Pyramids were created to store grain' 'I attacked my friend with a knife' 'I stood up and looked at the bear and said "Friend, Bear" and the bear said, "Friend, Ben" and the camp counselor said, "Ben! Think of your hands" (read his book!)" Carson.

Piyush Jindal said the Republican Party needs to get rid of the offensive and bizarre speech. Guess what, Piyush? Offensive and Bizarre are running 1-2.

Infuckingcredible.

* Last updated by: Danno on 11/21/2015 @ 10:13 PM *

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"'Love your enemy'
'If your enemy strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other.'"...how about this slant...

God loves EVERYONE.He does NOT love their actions.(those that would purposely hurt another of His creation).

"His ways are past finding out"...."Who has known the mind of God..that he may instruct Him?"...sometimes...simple obedience produces unseen(to us)results.We never truly know what our obedience to God will reveal...to us...or others.

This is the plan.To be obedient,trust,and watch.Wait and see what God can and will do.You never know with certainty how or where God will fulfill His promises to a believer.Even unbelievers get countless blessings and gifts everyday,every hour,every second.Some recognize em...some don't.He's always here...always.Not some far flung place in the universe...God is as close as a breath.Waiting.Speaking.Asking us to connect.But He won't make us.That's how much he respects our being.And our 'God given right' to reject as well.

If a person wants what he's getting...he stays put.If he wants something better...he climbs higher.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/21/2015 @ 10:26 PM *

yannih It has nothing to do with God being wrong, if you read enough of the old testaament, you will see the
references to the coming "Messiah" that is Jesus, in the OT they were under the law, when jesus was born,
crucified, and resurrected, we are not under the law any more, we are under grace, thats why I was trying
to stress the words OT NT OC NC ....

If you believe in the God of the bible, HE is all omniscience, omnipotent, all knowing all seeing etc ..

If he created the heavens and earth and all in it, the solar system etc.. and see how complex it is for
all these things to work in conjunction, to have it just happen by chance, just doesn't seem logical,
but like I said, you are free to believe or not.

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"Wonder how many innocent people die on a daily basis? To the survivors of the dead innocents, who exactly are the terrorists?"...you have a great point there.That's one reason Obama has been hesitant to do any kind of radical military deal over there.Not that I'm for all his policies...but look what Bush created.Totally,possibly purposely misinformed.As much as it 'seemed' the American Way...morally and all...it was so ill thought out...and so rapidly set in motion...thousands died as a result.And 'we' became the haters in the world's eyes...at least to those being subjected to it.It's no wonder the Middle East peoples rose up against us.Just terrible planning and lack of forsight.

And for what?Has it 'helped' reinforce 'world peace'...or corrected the 'Saddam' problem?

IMO...those around Bush should have been brought to trial.For LYING.For withholding and fabricating 'facts'.For willfully ignoring those around them that had an actual KNOWLEDGE of just how the Middle East works.And the REAL repercussions of the actions taken.

They wanted to test their new advanced weaponry.And so they did.'Precision weapons'...like they somehow DON'T create collateral damage.Just terrible IMO.

Don't get me wrong..I love my country...would(and will and have) defend(ed) her all the way.But I simply cannot abide these wreckless and hair triggered politicians we have 'leading' this country and deciding who lives and who dies.Not in regards to whole countries and populations.

I've listened lately to the responses of the elite since the Paris Attacks.Saying things(here)like..."America needs to lead the world in this fight against ISIS(and such)"...the news keeps saying.."The American Led coalition" doing this or that(pertaining to bombing and such).WTF?RUSSIA's the one leading this deal over there...not us.Russia's supplying the weaponry to all these radical groups and countries.I wanna know WHY the US is being portrayed as the aggressor here.From our own media.It's just wrong and definitely NOT factual.This disturbs me.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/21/2015 @ 10:53 PM *

Wonder how many innocent people die on a daily basis? To the survivors of the dead innocents, who exactly are the terrorists?

Danno, I think they cheered when 911 happened and I don't see JoeAmerica over there bombing for christanity or buddhism, etc. Same as we or some of us cheer IS is losing ground or land grab. Still, china just took out 25 some odd jihad'he and his sick world to overthrow for allah. So with that kind of mindset you didn't vote for that muzzy/commie prez, did you?

That's why we are in this mess is your vote is 50 some odd percent of the shittyits of the modern western thought; do not see how simple this all looks. I should sue you for letting in these overthrowers and sue you double is when they pressure cooker someplace else, meaning, you dumbshit Americans condoning the jihad.

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I didn't vote for Obama.

Until he went to war with Iraq..I thought Bush was okay.I supported his going in to save Kuwait.After I started hearing the facts(and willful ignorance) about what led up to his decision about it(the Iraq war to oust Saddam)...I could no longer in good conscience be supportive of his 'policy'.Or the administration.They all closed their eyes to the facts of what would happen.No excuses.The Iraqis didn't hit the towers..those were Saudis.Sorry...but they were.And they didn't train in Iraq.

I truly feel Saddam could have been dealt with in a very different way.And I felt this way when the rhetoric was flying about "WMD's and Saddam".When Bush announced '48 hrs' to get outta dodge...I was sick inside.So many were gonna die for nothing.Our guys and gals...the Iraqi populations.They certainly didn't ALL hate the US...not even close.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/21/2015 @ 11:06 PM *

Car, sorry mate but

"If he created the heavens and earth and all in it, the solar system etc.. and see how complex it is for
all these things to work in conjunction, to have it just happen by chance, just doesn't seem logical"

Right, so the universe couldn't logically have happened by chance because its so complex.
But the answer is to believe in something infinitely more complex that created the complexity?

Religious logic at its very best.

This is truly getting more unbelievable every post, if that is possible...

* Last updated by: yannih on 11/22/2015 @ 2:58 AM *

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"No man shall see Me and live"...bible quote.

"Apparently this is because if you do see God, you will die.A lovely little cop out to cover over no human ever being able to see God"...

"Warning:riding with improperly adjusted forks may lead to an unsafe riding condition and/or death".

Does this sounds like a cop out?Or a straight statement about the possibility of crashing?

"You haven't and nor has anyone else in the history of existence"...hmmm...how do you KNOW I haven't heard from God?Or anyone else for that matter.

It takes a lot of faith to believe there is no God.Think about it.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/22/2015 @ 6:30 AM *

If there's a mass delusion going on...it's not religion..it's this idea that there is no God.

Man has always wanted a way out from the responsibility of facing and humbling himself before God.Starting in the Garden.AFTER they were told.."don't do this or you will die".It wasn't a threat.It was a fact.Just like..."do not ride with such and such tire wear showing".

God isn't out to get us.He's out to Love us..and share His life with us.It's really that simple.Faith opens the door...if only a little.That's all that's needed.Just a little.As He told the parable of the Mustard Seed...so it is with faith.God gives the increase.

Stubborn rejection only hurts the one who's rejecting...except that God Himself is saddened that we choose to go our way...when He knows the fullness He has to give.Like your kids.You try and guide em.You correct em.You help em.It's no different.And the joy of watching them in your life...sharing their joy in living...learning.The feelings you get from being with em...a part of your life.All that.God is no different.He said.."I will make man in my image"...and He did.

They sometimes make mistakes...you punish em or whatever(correction).You don't hate em for it...you love em.That's why you do it.You want the best for em..having had your own experiences.God is no different.Though He doesn't have any experiences personally with 'making mistakes'...He does know the rules.The eternal rules.He's not a punishing God.People 'punish' their own selves by their rejection of the Rules.Like saying.."I don't need water".

Spiritual Truth is no different.It exists.We just don't want anything to do with it...because of our concept of a punishing God.Jesus said.."Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"....He could have said..."look what they did to me...get em Father".

As Spock said.."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,or the one".Hollywood drama?Or actual truth...wrapped up in Hollywood drama.And God doesn't speak?He doesn't need to shout in a booming voice to get the message across..He can use anything he wants.And He does...unseen,invisible.But VERY there.

Unfortunately,the Human race (most of it)has tunnel vision.Focused on the things of this world.This world will pass.It won't always be like this.But we'll always be a spiritual creation.Whether we like it or not.You can't escape God.

God is constantly trying to reveal(and has)Himself to mankind.He knows He can't 'appear' to men in His glory...it's just the way it is.Like trying to take that curve beyond the laws of physics.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/22/2015 @ 7:12 AM *

As far as I know, that was a Ben Franklin quote, not Bible. The Bibl tells us we SHOULD rely on God, not ourselves. 'Ask and it will be given.'

If Ben Franklin said it, great. Rook what you're speaking of again is a covenant. Everything I said is backed up Biblically but I don't expect you to understand how or why. What your point is only supported by taking something out of context.

Grn, you're making awesome points!

LOL...you can't make this stuff up!I know I can't anyway;)

If there's a mass delusion going on...it's not religion..it's this idea that socialism + firearm confiscation = utopia.

Coming to a planet near you.

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Danno, I think they cheered when 911 happened and I don't see JoeAmerica over there bombing for christanity or buddhism, etc-Hub

According to The Donald, he saw thousands and thousands of people in New Jersey cheering the 911 attacks.

We are not bombing them over Christianity. Christianity is a pacifist religion when practiced according to the originator. We are bombing them over our way of life, which is what they oppose, not our religion. They don't want an inclusive society any more than a bunch of Conservative Southern Baptists want to be included in a Muslim prayer meeting. The radicals on both sides want the other one obliterated. Some guy stood up the other day and said "All Muslims are terrorists" He's not the only person that believes it. Trump said he wanted to register ALL Muslims, including the ones who had ben here for years, even those born here. The radical right-wing pundit Charles Krauthammer thought that was silly. Of course, when called out, Trump backed off and said he misunderstood the question and that a reporter framed it incorrectly.

This is still The United States of America, and any rule or law that applies to everyone equally is fair, whether you like it or not. This goes back to what I said about drug-testing and mental evaluations: test everybody or test no one.

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Hole he shits, Danno, look up caliphate. I thought I posted its history for you. The USA was not even discovered with the book of rules of the caliphate. In other words, nothing is new with the muzzy madness is overthrow anything in its path is forever. So to corral the "forevers" LOL, you forever throw them in interment camps and let them shit on themselves for all I care. One more empire falls because of the dumbcluck western fools that do not see history on the repeat.

Say boys, the ottoman empire fell, time for a new one. You're in the same boat as if you remember your history of the barbary wars... ring a bell? You're just JOeA is one more clueless western fool, dummy, rather watch Britney's twat step out of a car kind of duck dynasty mentality... don't answer. Someone said it's getting weird and I say things are normal LOL

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That's why we are in this mess is your vote is 50 some odd percent of the shittyits of the modern western thought; do not see how simple this all looks. I should sue you for letting in these overthrowers and sue you double is when they pressure cooker someplace else, meaning, you dumbshit Americans condoning the jihad.-Hub

Of course, then I should sue you for postulating such ridiculous assclownery. You are completely ignoring who was in power when 911 occurred, who made destabilizing invasions of middle eastern counries fashionable. And who ignored Colin Powell when he said "You break it, you bought it"

I don't recall ever condoning jihads. That is an entirely false characterization on your part, based, I believe, on your general paranoia and fear and lack of acceptance of responsibility for what those YOU may have voted for started and what those you assume I voted for are now left to clean up.

We are in this mess because we helped create it with misguided militarism and "nation building" imperialism. At least when Saddam and Kahdaffi were in power, they kept these fucks (and Iran, too) in check. Removing those dictators without viable alternatives to replace them (much like the movement to remove Assad) has led the the "mess we're in" as you characterize it. Please check the facts and read some history before you start making wild accusations about who's responsible.

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Really???

We are in this mess because we helped create it with misguided militarism

Hole he sits down, headplants* Danno in your basic wording of the war book...
Says islam = Struggle to convert.
Says submit = Both the follower and nonbeliver or die.
Says this = Letter by letter and you still do not get it.

I read a good point of dealing with 'reason.' There is no reasoning with the bibble bumpers/hooshecootee/this deity, that stick in the ground you pray to. It's a sickness that has no reason to exist, but we are dealing with illogical beings on earth; are those that follow the myth and perpetuate it.

We on the same page yet trying to justify a point in history about around the 7th century? Those same shittyits throughout history have placed their 'mess because we helped create what?' They didn't figure it out as is now.

Signed,
NOLTT

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