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Are Traction Control, Wheelie Control, Launch-Control, Engine-Braking Control really necessary?

ROADRACING WORLD MAGAZINE:
"According to the August edition of Road Racing World Magazine, this year British Superbike (BSB) became the world’s first major motorcycle road racing championship to BAN Traction Control. MotoGP plans to start moving in the same direction.

The vast majority of fans hate rider “nanny aids” because they remove much of the spectacle of riders working their machines. Many racers also dislike ultra-high tech electronics because they steal some of the fun, challenge and reward from racing. And many team owners aren’t keen on the technology, simply because it costs a fortune to run the systems.

Former title winning Superbike racer and team owner Rob McElnea probably summed it up best a couple of years ago. “We spend a fortune on tuning bikes, until they got too much power”, he said. “And then we spend another fortune on electronics, calming them down.”

What say you?

INTERESTING READ:
SportRider Magazine April 2012 Edition:
Colin Edwards and Freddie Spencer talk about their years in World Championship racing, and how so much has changed.

Kofla

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog

I like your style Kofla... playing the with the hornets nest...

To answer your question I can definitely do without a TC. My TC is my brain. Also I think it levels the field for average riders in moto gp. Granted it produces closer races but...

Let's say you're doing triple digit in a corner and you go over some oil: TC is not going to save your butt.
IMHO, TC is for when you wanna push it in conditions you know you shouldn't i.e roads with gravel, rain etc. I'm not a racer so when it rains, I just take it easy. What about wheelie control. Useful for drag racer but to me they are part of the fun. I have met several chicks who offered to moon/flash me for a wheelie what if I told them: "eeh, let me park and turn my TC off" lol It sure would brake the mood lol

* Last updated by: dragking on 7/31/2012 @ 11:55 PM *

Hmmm...

Maybe on the track, electronics spoil the action/fun - but there you have a group of professionals, who can wield the power and prowess of their machines with great proficiency - on the street, not too many riders are professional neither do they ride that well (even though most of us think we ride waaaay better than we actually do ) I think these nanny aids are needed (at least as options) to calm down the squids who think that I35 is a raceway, and whose very first bike is a Beemer SK1R or Busa or 14. I'm pretty sure that somewhere, some study showed that at least one rider was saved from catastrophe because of ABS or TC and that's a good thing. If you ride at such a level that you can do without, buy a bike without them, but I think that on a streetbike they should be included as options, but with an off switch.

I think the answer changes over time. Are cell phones and computers necessary? Twenty years ago, the majority of folks would have said "No". Today, I don't think the answer would be the same. As more and more riders get used to TC and WC etc. the more will say they are necessary.

I grew up in a house with a coal-fired furnace and no air conditioning. We thought it was a big deal when we got a stoker and didn't have to constantly feed the fire in winter. All you had to do was fill the stoker once a day. Are automatic furnaces and a/c really necessary? No, but who wants to give them up at this point in time? Electronic riding aids will be the same way someday. They will be accepted practice and nobody will want to ride without them. Hopefully their levels will still be adjustable when they become universal.

In the case of racing, flattrackers have known for years it's not the amount of power the engine produces, it's the amount of power you can put to the track through the rear tire. Having more power than you can use, (too much power) is a relatively new problem. When that trend started in the 70's tires were the limiting factor. Super-powerful bikes tore up their tires and slower machine won the races unless the power guys took it easier. Electronics takes some of that away from the riders so they can concentrate more on going fast and less on preserving their tires. Electronics are here to stay.

* Last updated by: Danno on 8/1/2012 @ 5:30 AM *

It's lke cars with OnStar.If I had it I'd break it.You can't tell me someone isn't tracking me or my speed.When I was in The Air Force I gave a neighbor girl 5 bucks for a magazine subscription.Didn't even look at it.I just sighned up for the Black Miltant which made me a member of the Black Panthers.Must of been the only white boy with that distinction.Well it landed me a heap of trouble with the FBI and OSI as a subversive.The OSI really exsists,not just on the 6 million dollar man.When I got back to base I was picked up by the Security Police to be interrigated by an OSI agent.WHAT WHY.They had photos of me smoking hash in Germany.Asking all these questions.Said I want a lawyer.He laughed saying you don't have any rights.This is military law.How did you get the magazine?We asked the questions here boy!!!Still gives me chlls.Cool Magazine though.Wheres Pattti Hurst?
Craig

That article brings back so many memories.When a rider won he could do a wheelie all the way down the straight.No wheelie control no taction control.My favorites Roberts Sheene Spencer Lawson and the crashing Canadian Yvon DuHamel and his deathtrap H-1.
Craig

I'm on-board with Danno and BigWillie.

I'm exclusively a street rider, and I'm not very good at it. I'm around my 1st 100k all in, that's all, in about 10 years of riding.

I could not ride this cycle without the nannies, I have no delusions about that. These electronics put this cycle within my skills without killing me in the process of my learning it. I'm about 4-5 months into this cycle now, and just last week (reluctantly/excitedly) switched from Low-Power to Full-Power mode. It remains, and will remain for at least a few more months, in "level 3" (most intrusive TC) intervention. I plan to step to level 2 next, and that will likely be as least aggressive as I'll allow it.

I've already saved thousands in repairs. Stupid, beginner stuff mistakes that would have put me down and in the repair shop (fr'instance: exiting service dept w/ just serviced cycle. Oops! tires are slippery again, and so is surrounding entrances. geez, that would'a looked good. TC to the rescue, and I ride away untarnished. Yay!)

So, my opinion does not have any weight with the "on track" aspect, and should be disregarded in that scope.

*BUT*, on the street? Yup, I gotta have'em, and I wish I had more (I ..... Want..... A. B. S.)

There's also a very well written artice about this same subject in Motorcyclist mag., this or last month, by Keith Code (Code Break) here:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/columns/122_1208_the_technology_of_riding/

* Last updated by: mebgardner on 8/1/2012 @ 2:11 PM *

Personally I don't care for it, if it's raining tone it down, if you run across gravel in a corner you should know how to deal with it. Maybe some people need it but then why buy a bike with so much power, I mean buy a 250 and get proficient at riding and then move up. Guess I'm just old school when traction control and wheelie control was the right wrist, I still live by that motto. Just my .02

I'm exclusively a street rider, and I'm not very good at it. I'm around my 1st 100k all in, that's all, in about 10 years of riding.

Interesting. I'm with heathun and I have been riding for 2 years only!

I think these nanny aids are needed (at least as options) to calm down the squids who think that I35 is a raceway, and whose very first bike is a Beemer SK1R or Busa or 14

Wishful thinking. Those squids are the first to off the TC or switch to Power mode 1. The way I see it, the TC makes them feel more confident about skills they don't possess and they crash anyways. Besides when you look at most accidents which don't involve other vehicles, the most common is entering a corner too hot and no TC can save you from that yet. Also, I still haven't run into a biker who crashed while it rained on the street although I'm sure it happens! Myself, I am more likely to crash (when it rains) with TC than without it. The last corner on my way to work is my favorite. It's a 90 degree with huge lanes so I come from the frontage road doing about 60, scrub the least amount of speed and throw the bike in. I'm becoming really good on that corner and yesterday I felt the tire drift for a split second. I bet I can go a little faster and drift a little longer. With TC I wouldn't be able to tell and would end up on the concrete without any warning.
Options would be nice though. The thing I would really want to see (especially)on the American 14 is ABS.

I mean buy a 250 and get proficient at riding and then move up. Guess I'm just old school when traction control and wheelie control was the right wrist, I still live by that motto. Just my .02

*In moto gp thousands of a second matter but last year Casey Stoner ditched the electronics and kicked everybody asses relatively easy.

I'm not sure but in England or Germany you have to ride several years before you can buy a liter.

Still think it should be nannies with options... The fact that some knucklehead will not use the rider aids or still over ride them and plaster himself (and maybe someone else) all over the highway, doesn't take away from the fact that they can help in emergency situations, not all, mind you, but some. I mean, we've said it on this forum time and time again, the street is NOT the place for your skills test - you wanna ride fast, take it to the track and ride as fast as you want. I mean, pretty much, it doesn't matter who you are, if you constantly push the edges of the envelope on the street, sooner or later, you'll end up in a box... And if I am not mistaken, TC wasn't put on sportbikes to save ur ass, it was put there to help reign in power and maximize driving force to the rear tire... gimme the TC and ABS, but gimme an off switch, so I can choose when to abuse!

* Last updated by: bigwilliezx on 8/1/2012 @ 4:18 PM *

When the rear starts to spin stop feeding gas and hold it there, she'll hook back up and drive out. Where people get into trouble is chopping the throttle or they continue to come on the gas and either highside or lowside. Same thing with wheelies if the front starts coming up handle it the same way.

The title of the thread is "the war over RACING electronics". If you're a professional racer, you shouldn't need electronic nannies, or want them. To me it would just take the fun out of racing, and help the less talented.
On the street, I don't even like the ABS on my car.

The top guys are gonna say that since the slower ones can catch up more with the e-aids. But anything that makes them go around quicker is not gonna be rejected out-of-hand. Part of it is the psychology of telling the backmarkers they are only getting faster because of traction control etc.

Not really any different than restrictor plates in NASCAR... Evens the playing field with the machines so driver/rider skill is the determining factor - I think the ONLY real bitch for anyone is the cost of hardware for the owners...

I like your style Kofla... playing the with the hornets nest...

What about wheelie control. Useful for drag racer but to me they are part of the fun. I have met several chicks who offered to moon/flash me for a wheelie what if I told them: "eeh, let me park and turn my TC off" lol It sure would brake the mood lol

Dragking, chicks who offered to moon/flash for a wheelie? lol Thanks for the laughs, lol

To be honest, I am surprised to find some people agree with me. I guess I am old school because even though I don't race anymore, I don't care for nanny aids either. Those years wheeling, dragracing Kawasaki 750 two-stroke triples come in handy now, lol

I think these nanny aids are needed (at least as options) to calm down the squids who think that I-35 is a raceway, and whose very first bike is a Beemer SK1R or Busa or 14. I'm pretty sure that somewhere, some study showed that at least one rider was saved from catastrophe because of ABS or TC and that's a good thing. If you ride at such a level that you can do without, buy a bike without them, but I think that on a streetbike they should be included as options, but with an off switch.

Bigwillizx, you are probably right. I also believe they should be offered as options, or have a (off/on) switch.

I think the answer changes over time. Are cell phones and computers necessary? Twenty years ago, the majority of folks would have said "No". Today, I don't think the answer would be the same. As more and more riders get used to TC and WC etc. the more will say they are necessary.

When that trend started in the 70's tires were the limiting factor. Super-powerful bikes tore up their tires and slower machine won the races unless the power guys took it easier.

Danno, yes, electronic aids are here to stay. I also believe some of the reasons why those options are implemented has more to do with political pressure, government control. And it's true, back then tire was a limiting factor, today's tire traction has improved tremendously. And like Colin Edwards said on that interview, now tires are so good that bikes are built around them.

When I was in The Air Force I gave a neighbor girl 5 bucks for a magazine subscription.Didn't even look at it.I just sighned up for the Black Miltant which made me a member of the Black Panthers.Must of been the only white boy with that distinction.Well it landed me a heap of trouble with the FBI and OSI as a subversive.

Craig, I believe you. I think back then our government was paranoid and everyone was suspected of being a radical. When I was in my teens a guy who was a sympathizer with the independence movement was also my baseball coach. Just because he visited our neighborhood some of us were labeled "troublemakers". One time he was almost arrested for suspicion of carrying "bombs" in the trunk of his car. After a search, the "bombs" were found to be baseball equipment, lol

That article brings back so many memories.When a rider won he could do a wheelie all the way down the straight.No wheelie control no taction control.My favorites Roberts Sheene Spencer Lawson and the crashing Canadian Yvon DuHamel and his deathtrap H-1.

Craig, I feel the same way, it's like driving down memory lane. Back then I was a huge Yvon Duhamel and Gary Nixon fan. Unfortunately, in those years they didn't broadcasted those weekend races on TV, there was no YouTube either. I wish I had saved some of those old Cycle World and Cycle Guide magazines.

I've already saved thousands in repairs. Stupid, beginner stuff mistakes that would have put me down and in the repair shop (fr'instance: exiting service dept w/ just serviced cycle. Oops! tires are slippery again, and so is surrounding entrances. geez, that would'a looked good. TC to the rescue, and I ride away untarnished. Yay!)

Mebgardner, don't feel bad, we have all been beginners at some point. In 1974, the first day I rode my very first bike out the dealership, I slipped, hit a parked car and laid my bike down right in front of the shop, lol Thankyou for including Keith Code's link, The Technology of Riding - Code Break

Personally I don't care for it, if it's raining tone it down, if you run across gravel in a corner you should know how to deal with it. Maybe some people need it but then why buy a bike with so much power. Guess I'm just old school when traction control and wheelie control was the right wrist, I still live by that motto.

Heathhun, I don't care for them either. I always suggest to people to start riding on a small bike. My first bike was a Yamaha DT-175 enduro, later on traded in for a DT-360. I had so many accidents, broken legs and flipped my bike doing wheelies so many times I lost count. If I had started on a big sport bike, I'd probably kill myself. I was riding for at least two years when I bought my first Kaw 750 two-stroke triple.

If you're a professional racer, you shouldn't need electronic nannies, or want them. To me it would just take the fun out of racing,

Alg8er, that is part of what some racers are saying. On a race their life depends on their skills but also on these electronics, who wants to risk it if they fail?

Kofla

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog

* Last updated by: KoflaOlivieri on 8/2/2012 @ 9:46 AM *

Working on 11,000 miles on my 14R and I have never had the thing out of POWER F and KTRC 1.

Well I think government has little to do with it. That's the easy boogeyman for anything nowadays,Be a conspiracy theorist if that makes you happy, but outside emissions and sound regs, if they even suspected there were 185 mph motorcycles that could push 200 with just a few tweaks, they would be up every manufacturer's ass so far they couldn't see daylight without looking upward.

You can be a Luddite and say all this crap isn't needed and somebody has to be making a ton of money off the difference or it wouldn't happen, but it's really all about free competition between the makers. If one beats the others to the punch with some new feature, and it sells units, the others will follow suit. Everyone's looking for an edge, on the racetrack and in the showrooms, and electronic rider aids are just the latest.

* Last updated by: Danno on 8/2/2012 @ 10:09 AM *

Working on 11,000 miles on my 14R and I have never had the thing out of POWER F and KTRC 1

21744, thats great that you are enjoying riding your 14R.

Well I think government has little to do with it. That's the easy boogeyman for anything nowadays,Be a conspiracy theorist if that makes you happy, but outside emissions and sound regs, if they even suspected there were 185 mph motorcycles that could push 200 with just a few tweaks, they would be up every manufacturer's ass so far they couldn't see daylight without looking upward.

You can be a Luddite and say all this crap isn't needed and somebody has to be making a ton of money off the difference or it wouldn't happen, but it's really all about free competition between the makers. If one beats the others to the punch with some new feature, and it sells units, the others will follow suit. Everyone's looking for an edge, on the racetrack and in the showrooms, and electronic rider aids are just the latest.

Danno, don't get me wrong, I love new technology. In fact, bought my first IBM computer in 1986 because wanted to use a computer software that analized and spit out all possible configuration modifications before going to the track. But when it comes to racing, I prefer all out racing, without restrictions.

Kofla

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog

* Last updated by: KoflaOlivieri on 8/2/2012 @ 12:04 PM *

In the eighties a friend had an old Commodore 64.It had a phone modum that you put the receiver on.It was almost like the internet.My buddies were playing cards and I was bored and started messing with the computer.I don't know how I did it but I ended up in a Kawasaki order site.Brought their new bike catalog and there she was.A brand new 1983 GPz1100 then called a ZX-1100.It had a list price of $4400 which was correct.Entered the shipping info and it would come in a box.All that was left was a credit card number.A friend got suspecious cause I was on it for awhile.My buddy said Rick you better check Craig out he's buying a bike.Rick said OMG how did you do this.I said can I have a credit card number?He unplugged everything and was freaking.To this day I have no idea.Kinda neet though.
Craig

In the eighties a friend had an old Commodore 64.It had a phone modum that you put the receiver on.It was almost like the internet

Craig, in 1989 I bought an external 2400 baud modem and connected to (BBS) bulletin boards in Long Island, mostly looking for porn, lol. My first online service was with Prodigy, a year or two before AOL was available.

And I laugh when I hear people complaining about slow computers. My first floppy driven IBM, was a 8088 CPU, lol using MS-DOS 1.1 operating system, lol

About ten years ago I tried to convince a friend to sell me his GPz-1100 but he refused. The poor bike is still sitting in his backyard. He owns the Gpz, a 1982 GS-1100 and a V-Max.

Kofla

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog

* Last updated by: KoflaOlivieri on 8/2/2012 @ 2:19 PM *

There are ALWAYS restrictions in racing-engine displacement, lower weight limits, modifications, equipment, tires, etc. And all are designed to make the racing better and closer, to level the playing field as it were., to prevent anyone from having an unfair advantage over others. MotoGP bikes are currently limited to 1000cc. Would you perfer 2000cc? How about 3000cc? Should there4 be any upper limit on displacement or lower limit on weight?

There is talk of spec ECUs for MotoGP to level the playing field between the prototypes and the CRT bikes. How far can you homogenize before everything is the same? The electronic traction and wheelie controls currently in use can be set for level of intrusion and each team has to balance the need to eliminate wheelspin with the need to be able to throttle up. All are free to set their controls to near-zero, so much still depends on rider skill and the ability to get by without electronic aids.

To me, the downside is that coming up with the proper set-up has one more factor to figure. Racing isn't just about the fastest rider or the most powerful machine. It's also knowing how to combine the two to best advantage. As long as everything is available to everyone, it's fair. I for one don't want to return to the old days where bike racers were regularly maimed or killed going balls-to-the-wall on machinery that wasn't optimized in some way whether it be crappy tires, more power than suspension or anything else. Whatever makes them go faster and safer is good.

Danno, I agree in part with what you're saying. I also think unless major changes happen in professional racing, there will be only a few factories participating because of the electronic cost involved. I thought that was why Suzuki pulled out, because of financial issues. I am sure we will see more CRT privateer bikes participating in the future, like Colin Edwards is doing this year. I still don't understand why after five years, they made the rule changes from 800cc to 1000, when some people say it is a step backward.

Here is an excellent read about this topic:
Superbike Electronics: AMA Pro Team Managers Talk About What Rules Should Be For 2013 And Beyond

Kofla

NINJA ZX-14 MotoVlog

Danno; I've known a few racers in my time, all in the olden days before electronics. Not a single one was concerned about crashing because of a lack of their skill. Crashing happens in racing. That's part of the thrill. Danger makes racing exciting to the spectator and the participant. Otherwise we'd all be watching chess, and driving a Volvo.

* Last updated by: alg8er on 8/2/2012 @ 10:53 PM *

When the rear starts to spin stop feeding gas and hold it there, she'll hook back up and drive out.

To go back to our scheduled programming: I'm not against rider aid and TC and I know they are here to stay but with the tires we have I don't think we are pushing so much hp than we need aids. The weight of a moto GP bike, the power (Ben Spies's scooter supposedly has 260 hp) and the way they ride those bikes, I can understand (a little) needing rider aids.

Danno; I've known a few racers in my time, all in the olden days before electronics. Not a single one was concerned about crashing because of a lack of their skill. Crashing happens in racing. That's part of the thrill. Danger makes racing exciting to the spectator and the participant. Otherwise we'd all be watching chess, and driving a Volvo.

Unfortunately, people will always crash and some people will always die prematurely regardless of the tech available. It 's in the nature of most men to seek thrills and danger. The problem with TC is that it will enable people to ride machinery they shouldn't even look at and to me that's dangerous. Also look at what happened to Marco Simoncelli or the number of people who die every year at the TT. Those guys are on the best machinery but are pushing the limits so the risk/safe ratio is always balanced.
In his essence rider aids like tire technology, is there to make you go faster not safer. When we get tires that are safe at 160mph we push them to 165 mph so we can develop tires capable of doing 170. Look at accidents back in the 60's and compare them to today are we safer now? Not really if you ask me. Yes we have air bags and such but we are traveling way faster. Hp and Tq will always be ahead of tire rubber and electronic packages and as consumers I don't think we would want it any other way. Again, Wheelie control, TC all assist in making you faster which means that you'll crash at higher speeds. For us average Joe, it's just something else the manufacturers can use in their sale speech a little bit like the wear Jordans and be like Mike commercials.