Hi all

2008 ZX 14. I have owned it since new. As I have and ride seven other street bikes, none of them, including the ZX 14, wind up with a lot of miles on them. The ZX 14 presently has roughly 3,500 miles on it.

The only "modification" to the front brake system is the replacement of the stock brake lines with Spiegler brake lines shortly after the bike was purchased, and installation of an adjustable CRG brake lever at the same time several years ago. I used Castrol DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid, and I have bled through the brake fluid each year with fresh Castrol DOT 4 synthetic. The last time this was done was when the bike was put away for the winter, in a heated garage, last October, and the bike just came out for its first ride yesterday.

I also fitted new tires last fall just before the bike was put away, Michelin Pilot Road 4 GT front and rear, in stock sizes.

yesterday I was taking it easy on the bike and myself for the first ride of the year, put on about 50 miles or so taking it easy, brakes were working normall,then wound the bike up to something nearer its actual potential. At speed the front end started to buck and shimmy and shake and continued to do so until I got the bike slowed down substantially, but as I was slowing down the front brake was not doing anything, I reduced speed by downshifting/engine braking/rear brake.

Pulled over, tested, and the front brakes were/are not working. The pull on the front brake lever/master cylinder feels relatively normal, the lever does not pull all the way into the bar for example, but no braking action occurs.

I rode the bike home using only the rear brake, although I kept trying the front brake without success. When I got home it was late and I didn't do anything with the bike other than park it, touch the front disks with my hand (they were cold), and check everything over quickly just visually. The front discs look normal, no scorching or discolouration, fluid level in the master cylinder is normal.

I am going to pull the entire braking system this weekend and have a look, strip the master cylinder, strip the calipers, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Paul LeClair

Let both calipers rest with the one caliper bolt up top and screwed in a few turns. The other one you remove and start pumping to see the pistons move out. Do the same with the other caliper to see if the pistons are stuck or willing to move out.

What color is the oil? Dark or clear? Kink in lines somewhere now showing up?

What Hub said, but carefully!

Consider placing a block of wood, or some other limiter device, in between the brake pads of the removed caliper.

I can't tell, from his description, if his advice is to have one of the two bolts holding each caliper loosely in place, and then semi-rotate each caliper away from the roater and watch the pads while you squeeze the brake handle, or...

Have each caliper held in place loosely by one bolt, then remove one caliper completely from the roater and squeeze the brake handle while watching the pads.

Either way, dont allow the pads to come together completely, or you'll force the brake pistons out of their barrels and you'll have a real mess on your hands.

From your description, they sound "stuck", but I have trouble believeing all 4 pistons would be stuck. They were working normally, and then they did not, OK. They could all appear "stuck, if a blockage occured between the front master cylinder output (banjo bolt), and the main, common, caliper input line hose nipple.

* Last updated by: mebgardner on 5/22/2015 @ 12:50 PM *

Good advice so far, thanks!

I am going to take everything apart tomorrow. I just ordered brake caliper rebuild kits and a new master cylinder piston and seals from the Kawasaki dealer. I am going to strip everything to castings.

Really odd, brake fluid is still clear, no immediately apparent kinks in the brake lines. The manual says DOT 4 brake fluid, which I used.

Will report back after dis assemblly

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 5/22/2015 @ 1:46 PM *

You need to figure out what caused it to shake, rattle and roll. I think the rotors may have knocked the pistons back in the calipers to the point they jammed and would not exert enough pressure on the pads to generate any braking force. You'll know if that's actually the case when you get the calipers apart. The question is, why did they do that? The wobble must have been severe enough to twist things up, but why did it shake that hard?

You say the lever didn't go all the way to the grip...okay.When you applied lever,did it FEEL like it was normal?Like it was having regular pressure in there?It returned to the non-applied state like normal?You replaced the lines...sounds like an amount of air is in there.You get the 'pressure' feel when the pads contact the rotors(and/or begin to push on the pistons,and then contact the rotor).If they weren't contacting the rotors,and the lever was going in as normal...then there's probably air trapped in there.I'd say...rebleed...If your pistons were stuck frozen...you would get significant pressure at the lever(it would feel normal)...and it would STOP being able to be squeezed well BEFORE the pads ever engaged the rotors(so like at half lever pull...it stopped and wouldn't squeeze anymore).Did it do this?

Another thing...probably doesn't apply here...but maybe.I replaced my pads at one time.SOMEHOW...I managed to NOT get the pin through one of the pad holes.It had slid forward in the caliper,but wasn't sticking out but a teeny bit at the front view.So I failed to notice it wasn't pinned in there(Don't ask me how I failed to not see that when installing the pin.the other pad was pinned).I took off...started riding.I applied my front brake.The lever felt fine,kinda.But it wasn't stopping like it should.I pulled over...took a look...that one pad was NOT contacting the rotor..it was in fact working it's way OUT the front..I took her home and re-installed that pad.It was fine after that(naturally)...but this COULD happen even to someone whose ALWAYS done their own brake pad installations...with NO problems up to that incident.

I don't think by reading your issue here that the pistons were frozen.You'd get a short lever pull...with the pistons locked open(in the caliper).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/23/2015 @ 6:08 PM *

Hi Grn14

your description is exact, but when I bled a full container of fresh fluid through the system, no air came out, just clean brake fluid. I took the bleed nipples right off, coated them in several wraps of Teflon tape, re-inserted, and used my air compressor driven vacuum bleeder, didn't get any air, just clean brake fluid. Then I tried bleeding manually, got the same result, no air, just clean brake fluid.

then I stripped everything.

the pistons came out of the caliper's fine, no issues, they weren't stuck. The piston came out of the master cylinder, no issues. I can't see anything wrong. I have ordered rebuild kits for the caliper's and the master cylinder, should be here end of this week. I also ordered a set of EBC HH sintered pads, original pads look fine, but might as well throw the entire kitchen sink at the issue especially when I still have no idea what the real root cause is.

I am stumped, I am not seeing anything obvious.

I happen to have most of a heavily wrecked 2008 ZX 14 that was crashed at less then 500 miles from new. I bought it for a parts cache a few years ago. I have the extra pair of brake calipers, the extra master cylinder, and even an extra pair of brake discs (although I would have to check them for trueness before using them), and I am going to take them apart for comparison purposes.

The only other things I can think of is tire balance on the new front tire, which front wheel I am going to take in and have put on a spin balancer while I stand and watch, front wheel bearings, and the front steering neck bearings, so the entire front end is coming off to check the front wheel bearings and the steering neck bearings and I will just replace them while I am in there.

at the speeds this bike is capable of, this issue of front end shake at speed resulting in a loss of front braking is something I am taking really seriously.

Paul LeClair

There have been numerous reports of worn front tires causing braking problems, typically shuddering/wobbling while braking. Also there's another thread about problems with aftermarket levers (Pazzo in that case) causing problems with the clutch.

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=6B654232-1372-66AE-3B17A97EB1E92431&page=1&searchTerm=Pazzo%20levers#10

I also remember reading a thread about someone who had their bike bumped into by a car which bent the front rotor slightly causing him to have nearly no front brakes.

So, if you've got the tools, check the rotors to make sure they're true and check for cracks, (not a bad idea to check the thickness while you're looking), check the tires, if they're suspect replace them if nothing else you'll get some piece of mind (hell, hang on to the old tires if that doesn't fix the issue). Lastly you could try putting the stock levers on.

Well Laverda...whatever is/was causing this deal...sounds like everything you're doing should definitely correct any of the issues.That is odd about the front dancing around..at least to me...when nothing has been done to it from storage.You bled the brakes...how about the master up top there...you made sure no air was trapped in there?Sometimes a bubble will hang up at the bottom of that master.Manual say 'tap' the master several times to move that bubble(if there is one)up into the nipple.Might just try that when it's all back together.

thanks for the replies. Hmmmmmm....... what are the odds that a really really windy day, and running straight into the wind at around *** mph (closed course, private track, definitely not on public roads, etc.) would activate or partially activate the front brake? The CRG levers are fairly "fat" in front profile. I will fit the stock brake lever when I put the bike back together.

something has to have made the front end shimmy and shake and buck, the brand new Michelin Pilot Road 4 GT tires front and rear were mounted with brand new metal valve stems (to comply with the rules to run on the salt at Bonneville this summer) and the tires were balanced on a spin balancer with instructions o be as exact as possible as te intention is they will be run at as close to 200 mph as may be possible with a de-restricted and modified ZX 14. The "GT" version of the Michelin Pilot Road 4 is heavier and stronger than the other versions of the Michelin Pilot tire series and I was worried about proper balancing especially with the heavier metal valve stems added to the mix.

anyway, I do have the necessary equipment and tools to check the discs, I already have them both off the front wheel and will do that later this week while I am waiting for the brake rebuild parts, wheel bearings, and steering neck bearings to arrive. I was going to replace the wheel bearings anyways before heading for Bonneville, so I have ordered this ceramic wheel bearing set from Muzzy's http://www.muzzys.com/ZX14/ZX14_CeramicBearings/index.html but I am still freaked out about not yet finding an actual cause for what happened.....

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 5/24/2015 @ 10:52 PM *

IMO...disc' have nothing to do with brakes not engaging.You'd feel a pulse at the lever if they were warped or something.Your tires causing bucking(not sure what you mean by that)and the other symptoms don't add up with new tires and spun balanced.The odds of windflow against a brake lever causing it to apply just wouldn't happen.

"then wound the bike up to something nearer its actual potential. At speed the front end started to buck and shimmy and shake and continued to do so until I got the bike slowed down substantially, but as I was slowing down the front brake was not doing anything",

You took the bike out of storage.It was fine when you put it there.NOTHING should have deteriorated so badly to cause what your describing.Bearings...all those hard parts...they aren't gonna suddenly go crazy on the first outing.Discs.Nope.You changed the brake lines.That's what's different and the tires.The brakes with the factory lines and masters and all WORKED before storage.Wheels were spun balanced...check that off the list.Sounds to me like MAYBE the headshake was due to powering up,the front end skipped a bit...and that's what ya felt.

If that return hole in the master has some rubber particles in there...loss of brake action could occur.It happened to me.There was still pressure in the lever,but the fluid wasn't flowing back into the master as it should have.(even though it's a SMALL movement).Pumping did not help.She's an 08...plenty of time and riding to degrade the rubber parts inside that master.Even if you changed fluid regularly.Look in the reservoir.Any teensy bits of black silt or anything in there?On the bottom there.

It's important to clarify WHEN this occurred.
You say..."At speed the front end started to"...okay...what does that mean?Accelerating hard?Just holding a set throttle and speed?Sounds like front end lift to me if you were hammering as it sounds like you might have.

I do not see a correlation to the headshake deal and the brakes not working when applied.None at all.If they weren't working...there'd be NO connection to the other things.If they WERE working and something was wrong disc-wise,it could cause some symptoms related to pulsing...but that's it really.Since there wasn't any force being applied to the frontend through braking,that rules out ANY issues with brakes for THAT deal.I mean..that's my opinion with this.

Sounds like the master is/has failed.Headshake is something totally different...you might check the bearing play at the steering stem.Before you buy a bunch of parts.How they gonna suddenly go 'bad' from sitting not being used in a heated garage?Or even loosen up?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/25/2015 @ 12:12 PM *

thanks for the detailed reply and analysis.

the Galfer brake lines were installed by me very shortly after I bought the bike new. No issues for years now. They are off the bike now, and I blew compressed air through them with no apparent obstructions evident, they alos seem nice and clean judging by what was coming out of them, being only clean brake fluid.

Disclaimer - Closed course, private road, NOT on public roads etc. - bike was doing roughly 160 mph and still accelerating hard when the front wheel felt sort of like the front brake was being applied, front wheel was bouncing and stuttering, then the bike started to shake the bars side to side slightly, by which point I was already off the power, had figured out the front brakes were not working, closed throttle and light rear brake to slow down, front end still wonky until the bike got down to about 100 mph, then smoothed out, but front brakes still not working.

before I then stripped the front end completely, I bled about a liter of Castrol 4 Synthetic brake fluid through the master/lines/calipers, no air bubbles, no black crap or crap of any kind coming out. I used my air compressor powered vacuum bleeder which sucks fluid through the system quite forcefully.

then I pulled the calipers, all four pistons were free in their bores, took them apart anyway, no grunge apparent inside, nice and clean.

pulled the front wheel, the bearing seals look a little the worse for wear but the bearings seem fine - replacing everything anyway, parts on order.

pulled the forks and the triple tree, steering neck bearings seemed to be adjusted properly, maybe a little dry, going to re use them after a good lubing with synthetic grease.

stripped the master cylinder. Some black gunkish stuff in the bore when I pulled the piston, I have the master cylinder casting in an ultra sonic cleaner today and black crap is still coming out of it, master cylinder rebuild parts already on order. I will be sure the master is squeaky clean before it goes back together and that passages and orifices are clear.

new EBC HH brake pads also on order.

also have stripped the forks, was time to change fork oil anyway.

the reason any of this is an issue is I have done some very mild "performance" upgrades, removed all three catalytic convertors, plugged the air passages in the head, did some mild clean up to the head, added a Muzzy's "Bonneville Speed Delimiter", did the gearing calculations, welded a bung in the header for a Bosch wide band sensor and then spent quite a bit of time with a Power Commander 5 and an Auto Tuner developing some mapping, including activating the "accelerator pump" function and leaning out the top end over richness. I also drilled and safety wired all the critical bits, studied the rule book, fitted flame proof fuel line covers, metal valve stems for the tires as required, etc., etc. At age 61 I am shooting to getting as close as I can to breaking 200 mph this summer on the salt and I don't want to be dealing with any front brake or weird front end behaviours.

I know what I am doing sounds like excessive parts replacement and going a bit overboard, now I am coming to the thinking that maybe it was something as simple as deteriorating rubber and resulting gunk in the master cylinder, I simply have not found anything else of any concern other than slightly deteriorated rubber wheel bearing seals.

laverda1200

Nah...not excessive.Sounds totally cool.You care about you and your beloved.Awesome man...I just don't have the energy anymore to go KooKoo with stuff...Regular maintenance...if it involves anything 'critical'...I plan on taking it to my dealer.All the other stuff I've done.With the exception of new fork oil.At 20k,she's alright.

I would assume you have a pedal; but between the pressure and caliper, might the (alleged) galfur have a collapsed uterus down the line somewhere?

Hi Hub

when I bought the bike new, I had just had cancer surgery on my right forearm, removed some tendon and muscle, and I couldn't tolerate the clip on bars. I bought an LSL top triple clamp and SuperSport bar conversion, which came with Spiegler brake lines, the top line is longer to accommodate the SuperSport bars. Once my arm healed (and cancer was gone!!!!!) I took the LSL top triple clamp and SuperSport bar off and re installed the stock triple clamp and stock clip on bars, but with bar risers under them, and kept the Spiegler brake lines on the bike.

the Spiegler brake lines came directly from Spiegler originally, so I know they are authentic. They have been on the bike for several years now, I suppose they could be deteriorating but I have not seen any signs of that, the brakes bleed normally. Anyways, to eliminate them as a possible suspect, I will re fit the stock lines as a test. How long are brake lines supposed to last anyway?

all the brake rebuild parts arrived, except for the master cylinder rebuild kit, so I have the brake calipers back together, with new EBC HH pads, so far I have the front end back on with steering neck bearings freshly greased, the forks are back together with fresh fork oil.

so, I am presently waiting on the ordered new wheel bearing's and bearing seals, and the brake master rebuild kit, hopefully all here by the end of the week. While I am at it I changed the oil and filter, and I am going to go over the rest of the bike quite carefully while it is up on my lift table.

Paul

Lav, here's the quick and dirty collapsed hose. Y is the single up to the master and Y is the split down to both calipers, right?

1. I break left caliper bleed nipple loose; I squeeze the lever = No joy.
2. I break right caliper bleed nipple loose and again = No joy.
3. I break loose the master's banjo and the lever moves = Joy!
4. Variable = The single hose down to the Y for both sides. See how that 'has to be one of 3 moves' is the maneuver?

A. The master moves at left caliper = Frozen caliper piston.
B. The master forces oil out the caliper nipple = Frozen cal piston.
C. The master does not move again, we move to the right caliper and the master bleeds down = Frozen right caliper piston.
D. The bird shot twice maneuver is twofold.

Hi Hub

I need to figure out how to post photos.......

caliper's are back off the bike and split apart, with all the pistons out of them as well as the seals. None of the pistons were difficult to remove, and clearly not stuck.

master cylinder is still completely dis assembled, waiting for new piston and seals that were ordered end of last week.

all of the Spiegler brake lines are now off the bike, and I can blow compressed air through all of them, but even though they do not seem to be collapsed internally, I am putting the factory stock hoses back on when I re assemble again.

I did fit the new EBC HH brake pads, re fit the calipers, hooked everything up and bled everything, still no brakes, so it has to be in the lines or in the brake splitter or in the master cylinder itself.

I am also going to refit the stock brake lever just to make sure the CRG brake lever assembly is not causing any issues, the "tab" on the CRG brake lever assembly that triggers the brake light switch is bent, and the single bolt that holds it in place is bent as well, rather odd, but may have been from me really yanking on the front brake lever trying to get any braking action at all.

now just waiting on parts.........

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 5/26/2015 @ 4:06 PM *

CRG, lav? This thing is kicking me in the pants about that lever not moving? Now you say there was an argument with the aftmkt parts being installed and what are the odds it's the lever binding up against some broken parts still in the way, something in the pivot area? All I can do is guess. Lets find some lever action on assembly? Beats me?

Brake bleeding is a single open and a single close of the nipple. The rest is just arm pump at the lever and pedal. You did burp the master and that nipple, yes? Let me restate that.

1. Hang the master and not prime it without a banjo? No problem.
2. Hang the lines and not pump from the prime down to the lines before tying up? No problem.
3. Hang the who system on dry and now fill&pump till arm pump or the bubbles are gone; whoever comes first?

Amateur:
I close and pump and open and pump and destroy that nipple end and caliper body is old style don't stop me.

Flat-Rate:
I open and pump and pump and fill the rez and fill and oh, no pedal? I close the caliper(s) and open the master's nip and one pump to the lever is one time only and close the nip before lever/pedal is released. I fill the rez, open both cal's and pump and pump is clean up your end sort of speak you can't get a pedal... pay the cashier.

Net Bleed:
I can show you two vids, no other tools than the nipple wrench, a clear hose, a coffee cup, the arm pump [vid speedup], and/or have the finger and thumb over the brake hose end. If I just held my fingers over the banjo hole end of the hose, the air behind it alone would whoopee cushion on my finger tips anyway.

That says; I'm going to speed more oil into the line than the air will return back up the line, I can now screw the banjo on, open the nip, arm pump until the clear line keeps pumping clear oil and I shut the nip down on the last pull of the lever/push of the pedal.

I don't know if those steps worked out in your head, but this is the speed it takes to bleed brakes, not hang the calipers from the ceiling and wait overnight for the bubbles and all that wild net jerking off of one nipple movement basically.

Hi Hub

I use a pneumatic vacuum brake bleeder with a remote reservoir brake fluid supply attached o the master cylinder, the units are similar to this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015POUXM/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687502&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B006ZB97W0&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0M8HJ5D1NC2WRVQ4PB0W

CRG is Constructors Racing Group, I am using their levers on six on my bikes, have not had any issues with them, so far

http://www.constructorsrg.com/levers/folding.html

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 5/26/2015 @ 8:24 PM *

Have you ran this bike on the salt before?

"all of the Spiegler brake lines are now off the bike, and I can blow compressed air through all of them, but even though they do not seem to be collapsed internally, I am putting the factory stock hoses back on when I re assemble again."...course,it's your choice...but WHY return to the factory parts when she was FINE with the Spiegler's?IMO...not hoses.IMO...Master failing.Don't forget...compressed air has water vapor in it.You don't want that in your lines.It ends up in the internals..pistons...all that.Next guess?Corrosion.Next?Replacement parts or all the suggestions previously submitted.You get the picture;)

I'm thinkin this really IS a simple fix...the master rebuild.I mean...it's good you checked everything.Hat's off to ya.However,I think all that stuff was totally unnecessary.No air in lines.No loss of fluids.They were working fine,now they aren't.What changed?NOTHING...except the pressure isn't there as it was.WHAT would cause that?

The fluid isn't being moved as before.What controls THAT?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 5/27/2015 @ 9:18 AM *

Hi Redboot

I suspect I can guess what you are getting at, the damage the salt does to everything. while I have been to the salt myself before with other bikes, this particular bike has not been to the salt yet. I am aware of the salt corrosion issues that arise that even a complete dis assembly does not always sort....... On this particular bike I have sprayed about four cans of Boeshield T9 (sourced from Lee Valley Tools) as a feeble attempt to try and limit the damage even a little bit. http://boeshield.com/

Hi Grn14

I agree it was likely the master cylinder or the CRG lever assembly affecting the master cylinder, and last night I dug through the bins in my storage shed and found the original brake lines, a spare master cylinder with a spare original brake lever, a spare pair of calipers, etc. This spare master cylinder and the spare pair of caliper's have less than 500 original miles on them, came for a very low mileage crashed 2008 ZX 14 I bought most of several years ago for spare parts.

I have a three cylinder upright 80 gallon compressor that I use for painting motorcycle bodywork so I have a pretty good commercial paint quality moisture trap on it that I service regularly, I am not overly concerned about moisture in the compressed air I use, but it is a valid point.

I have other preparations that still need finishing on this bike, I need to get the brakes resolved and move on to other required prep, I am thinking I may just stick the spare braking system, complete, onto the bike and continue moving forward if that resolves the issues. I will report back.

Paul

I installed the complete "spare" front brake system, spare master cylinder with the original brake lever, all original brake lines, spare calipers with fresh EBC HH pads, bled everything with the power bleeder, and called it good. Front brakes now work fine.

I still have no idea what the mechanical issue was, I still have the original master cylinder in bits waiting for the new piston and seals, it could have been as simple as the master cylinder and/or the lightly damaged CRG aftermarket brake lever (although I think I damaged the CRG lever myself after the front brakes failed). I stripped the original calipers again to bare castings, and I removed all the Spiegler brake lines from the bike. I'll sort all those bits eventually, but for now I have other aspects of the bike that need attention and I need to do some riding as well....

thanks for all the help and suggestions, not a satisfactory ending as I never did figure out the cause of the problem but the bike is back up and running and braking very well..... The front brake system is going to have to come apart again as I was out of the weird thick aluminum crush washers Kawasaki uses, but I had a big supply of the thinner copper crush washers used in older Brembo brake systems, so I am going to order a fresh supply of the proper aluminum crush washers and retro fit them when they arrive.

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 5/27/2015 @ 7:02 PM *

"Front brakes now work fine".Happy for ya...glad THAT's no longer a problem.

If/when you get to inspecting that master...let us know what shape it was in,will ya?Personally,I'd like to know.Good info here from your posts...thanks!

Just as a side note. MOTO GP bikes have holes in the brake lever because at high speed the lever was actually being pushed closer to the throttle and actuating the brake. As for head shake causing the brakes to not function. The very same thing happened to Casey Stoner at Motegi in Japan and caused him to run off the track.
I had a similar event happen to me only on a much much slower scale. After mounting new tires I put the wheels back on and rolled the bike backwards out of my garage. I pulled the front brake and nothing! We finally diagnosed the problem as a slightly bent rotor that must have occurred while mounting or removing tires.

Not sure if that helps any but certainly reminds me of the above info

GP