Ok well I finally had to do it, I had to post here! That being said there are a few reasons for doing so. First off after reading posts on all kind of subjects over the last year sense I purchased my ZX14, I have been able to find every answer I have had until now. Second, reading the information posted here on the ZX-14 Ninja Forums site from it's members shows a great deal of knowledge is among it's members aside of the occasional sword play! So, my story.

I now own, as of last year, a 2009 ZX-14 SE. It was purchase with 6200 miles and included Two Brothers full M2 exhaust, K&N filter and a few other goodies. The first week I owned her, she was in more pieces than satellites orbiting our great planet! I went over everything (did I mention yet I'm Anal) until I was satisfied that she would be ready and safe for high speeds. My plans are to tune her to better than factory as I'm never satisfied leaving things stock. I purchased a PCV as I noted the SS exhaust was discolored from head to can and after inspection of the spark plugs, confirmed my suspicion she was running a bit lean. Now together and on the road after some testing and fairly easily finding the speed limiter, I knew it was time to do something about that! I purchased a second ECU so that one could be flashed leaving my original one in stock form for "just in case" reasons. Early on before finding the "Roman's Flash" blog info, I had sent my ECU to another, I believe, reputable company (not mentioning any names yet) as I also read some people after flashing an ECU have locked them so only "they" can make any changes in the future. This was not acceptable to me and made me feel as if my ECU from that point was being held hostage! I received the ECU back with the std changes: +4 timing, secondary's, +500RPM rev limiter, and what I wanted all along, no speed limiter! Now back to them speed runs! Well, bottom end is much stronger, almost wild yet smooth however the bike has a bit more difficulty pulling top end gearing. How do I know? Well I use a data logger that records speed vs distance vs time vs G's. My data shows the stock ECU took longer to get to 140MPH but after that was quicker to top end. The flashed ECU gets to 140 quicker but takes longer from that point and struggles to top out at speeds where the stock ECU would get to and hit the speed limiter even in 5th gear. Checking plugs again today I find shes lean again. Looking deep down on the plugs ceramic there is no color at all where plugs show on WOT. Thinking about this, I did not make any changes to the fuel table after the flash so I added 8 points on the power commander in the 100% columns from 7000RPM up. I also feel from my many years of drag racing that the timing may be a bit too high at those RPM's. I always found retarding timing made more top end thus more MPH. So today I contacted Woolich with some questions as to timing maps and his flashing tool. What I don't know is if he or anyone will have a stock ignition map for my zx-14 for me to compare against the flashed one I have and if not, if I would need to purchase another "Key" just to read my stock ECU for comparison. Already purchased is a power Commander auto tune to go along with Akrapovic exhaust arriving next week as I don't care for the Two Brothers system, it's performance is weaker and much to loud. So if anyone has a factory ignition map and any other ideas, let me know. Thanks in advance for reading this, my first novel!

So if anyone has a factory ignition map and any other ideas, let me know. Thanks in advance for reading this, my first novel!

1st post, Welcome.

Here is what I believe you're looking for. I would love to see your current timing map Shown like the one below. From here we can get it sorted out. After work on your fuel tables to insure your running proper AFR. Then retest,go out and Make your runs again. Hope this pic helps Cheers and welcome aboard.

Stock ZX14 timing Map Shown

Rook Brought this over from my post on 1441 as it relates to your search for Timing tools.

[quote="SmokinZX14"] Adding or pulling timing on the Gen 1 and Gen 2 can be helpful but the gains are small ... There is a reason the gen 1 uses more timing that the gen 2 ..The Gen 1 is a smaller stroke , Small stroke motors like more timing because the piston spend less time at TDC ( it's called dwell time ) So the advancing the timing seen on the chart above is helpful .. The Gen 2 with the extra stroke has more dwell time and more burn time so big advance numbers are not needed ..

Think of it like this , a 350 chevy motor likes up to 38 Deg advance ... While a 540 Big block chevy likes 32 to 34 deg advance .. Long stroke motors like my 496 Chrysler motor is maxed out a 32 total advance , more than 32 I lose power ...

Same applies for the Gen 1 Vs Gen 2 engines ... Kawi worked out a good but safe timing map ...We can tweak it a bit past what Kawi said was a safe number and pick up a bit more power .. Just don't go to far .. :wreck:

Lee Normally I would agree one thousand percent but in the case of the Gen 2 14R compared to the Gen 1 14 Oddly the real world timing numbers tell a completely different story. Now I know what I'm about to say flies in the face of what has been beaten into us from the day of the ZX14s introduction, so, I will tread lightly and explain what I know to be true. Please, all who read take this info lightly or ignore if you wish. This info is from my point of view based on my own testing. Going to take the Risk and share as not many talk about what's really going on in our timing maps.

Let's Get started;
Now I for one always hated the Hole in power down low in the Gen1 ZX14. Worked tirelessly trying to fix it spending a fortune on Ignition modules mechanical wheel advancers, MSD SB6 etc. Made some improvements with the tools of the day but always believed there was more. From 2007 to now I have owned seven ZX14s and have never stopped testing. It's my Hobby. And I'm still having fun with it. So let's fast forward to today.

Today with the new current flash tools available it is possible to fix that hole in the bottom end of the Gen1, We can make the bike run like it was always supposed to. In my opinion based on my testing there are amazing Gains to be had with timing changes in the Gen1. You may have heard me say before "The Gen1 guys have the most to Gain by flashing their ECU" over the 14R guys. It's sad that in the flashing world the 14R overshadows how great we can improve the Gen1. These gains are not in the top end(sorry) but they are indeed everywhere else. Sadly (imo) the 100% throttle position is the only one row of cells I like. Moving on.

Now lets go to the ECU numbers and look closely the TPS 100% column. Now follow this row all the way up to 11,500. You may now see timing numbers that are a mirror image between the two Generation bikes. This is right up until 6000 RPM, then timing numbers fall slowly in the 14R. This is where we Flash Guys add in 2 Degrees. Now if you take a compare in the 100% column things start to show where I'm coming from.

Next, like Lee was explaining above we can look at Dwell time and what should be much lower timing numbers. One would think the 14R would run with much lower timing numbers throughout the map, Yet, we have advances of more than a whopping ten degrees. Everywhere the 14R is running more timing. Lots more.

So, more testing was performed. Some of you may have noticed Gains in throttle response with your flies removed. Ok, this is expected. But the relationship with regards(3D tuning)to the secondary throttle plates most do not expect.

While in the ECU if you guys turn the plates open sooner and you will soon notice increased throttle response even though your plates have been mechanically removed. My belief is the Throttle position sensor sends the timing information downstream in series with the secondary throttle plate maps. Secondary Throttle Plates having the last say on which timing rows gets sent out to the bike. There is a direct relationship between the two of that I have no doubt.
Hence all the gains in throttle response. If this is indeed the case, tuning in the 3D must also push the fuel maps as well. More tests in AFR were done to prove this theory.

For me in my Timing studies "Nothing" is what I thought it was. There are great gains to be had in the bikes driveability playing with timing. Not so much for the 1/4 mile guys. Kawi has done a great job here, impressive. For them the 100% column is a Max of 2 degrees in the 14R. With the Gen one pull one degree down to 31.5 bike makes more power. That entire Gen1 timing map I hate. You Guys deserved better. At the end of the day Both bikes like close to 32 degrees advance at WOT.

Now for you guys that don't know me, please understand I test and try everything on my own bikes, so take what I'm saying as my research shared for all to add to or use. I never stop searching for more power, the study never ends. Basically I'm just having fun with it and thought I would share what I have seen and tested. I hope this info helps some of you in your flashing techniques.

Guys If you have any questions please ask. If I can Help I will. I don't mind sharing. Ten Minds better than one
Cheers
Rick
rickromans@rogers.com

Guys I've tried to make my point of view, viewable for all to see. But the pics are to small. Ahhhhh, Sorry I don't know how to expand for all to see. Help

Rick, thanks for posting the stock ignition map. I had taken a screen shot of it from a previous post page for study however reading the following quotes was not sure if it really was for the Gen 1 14:

WAIT! Holy crap! Are you running a Gen1 all the way to 15000 rpm?

If the bike was still making power at that RPM we could flash it in, Sadly it's not. F1 Car lol

By the way, I reached out to the people that preformed the flash and they sent the following reply today:

We don't adjust the ignition timing on the ZX14's.

Increased Rev Limiter to 11,500RPM (+500rpm from stock)
Top Speed Limiter Removed
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open

These are the only changes made.

Now, do both ecus have the same serial number? Different ecus numbers will have different fuel maps. Let me know.

With that thought I remember taking a pic of the ECU's and looked for it. Both ECU's have matching part numbers on there first two rows. For the third I would have to remove there sticker to read it.
STOCK:
F8T98573
21175-0142
9109

FLASHED:
F8T98573
21175-0142
????

I was thinking the 3rd row denotes production date, is this correct? If so could there be a slight change to anything in the tables related to fuel or ignition or are Gen 1 ECU's the same for all years?

Thanks,
Brian.

* Last updated by: gofst2 on 4/8/2016 @ 10:22 AM *

Guys I've tried to make my point of view, viewable for all to see. But the pics are to small. Ahhhhh, Sorry I don't know how to expand for all to see.

The numbers are a bit fuzzy to read for these old eyes, perhaps, if you don't mind, just to separate screen shots. Perhaps your trying to hard to make things easy on us by overlaying the table pics? lol. Got to leave us newbies some work to do! But hey, if it's the weather getting to you up there, I've got a extra room here in Florida and oh yeah, a 14 we can work on!

Separate screen shots or crop in your photo software. Post the url and I can do that if you want.

if it's the weather getting to you up there, I've got a extra room here in Florida and oh yeah, a 14 we can work on!

I'd grab that offer. We just had ~6" of snow and 3 more in the weekend forecast.

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I'd grab that offer. We just had ~6" of snow and 3 more in the weekend forecast.

Bummer Rook. Growing up in Chicago and having family in Dundas Ontario I know how those winters can be. Gosh I miss the snow....NOT, lol.

Hey Romans I had another question pop into my brain. If factory gen 1 14's rev limited to the 10,900 area does the factory also create fuel maps to match the above factory ignition map you posted all the way to 15,000RPM?

Something else I forgot to mention was the guys who flashed my ECU mentioned there maps make a couple HP more with the secondary's in. As I have removed them back when I still ran the stock ECU, what is your opinion about reinstalling them?

Separate screen shots or crop in your photo software. Post the url and I can do that if you want.

Ugh!

If factory gen 1 14's rev limited to the 10,900 area does the factory also create fuel maps to match the above factory ignition map you posted all the way to 15,000RPM?

First Gen1 Rev Limit is 11,050. There is little befit in the over Rev of a Gen one.

Something else I forgot to mention was the guys who flashed my ECU mentioned there maps make a couple HP more with the secondary's in. As I have removed them back when I still ran the stock ECU, what is your opinion about reinstalling them?

Schnitz ?

On the dyno you may see gains. On the track with Ram Air in play flies out has proven to Be the winner. Your call.

First Gen1 Rev Limit is 11,050. There is little befit in the over Rev of a Gen one.

OK I believe you when you say 11,050 limit. I have looked and found so many different answers to this from 10,900 all the way up to 11,500. What I did find is these tachs are not that accurate, almost as bad as the speedo's. I made a run to rev limit in 4th to see what the tach was indicating when it hit, it was 11,450. Now with the flash it will run up to a reading of almost 12,000, not that I care to run that high. In fact my data shows quicker acceleration when shifting a bit early. I asked if factory fuel tables are made above the rev limiter (like the ignition table) for the reason that for those who have flashed and do run to a higher RPM limit, is there a factory table to cover that extra RPM or is it just 0 or nothing up at those RPM's?

Schnitz ?

You know this stuff so well!!

On the dyno you may see gains. On the track with Ram Air in play flies out has proven to Be the winner. Your call.

My call is that I don't want to have to deal with them tiny secondary screws and Loctite again!

The tach might go past 11000 for a split second and then fall a bit lower. Maybe that is just momentum carrying the needle past 11k. i never let it bounce on the limiter so I've never observed what the tach indicates after spooling up to max. I have read comments that the tach is not accurate. The rev limit is 11000 indicated but in reality, the engine rpm is somewhat lower than 11000 when it's on the limiter...or so I've heard. Also, you're right about shifting below redline. About 9500 rpm should give you your best acceleration (I assume that's 9500 indicated) with a stock bike. Dyno charts seem to confirm this because the hp increase is flattening off around 9.5k and then hp starts dropping. That's with stock mapping and no mods. I believe the power band is more useful closer to the tippy top with a pipe and a tune.

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The tach might go past 11000 for a split second and then fall a bit lower.

Rook, I have taken the bike to it's top RPM in 5th and found the tach hits 11,450-11,500 with my stock ECU. Because I purchased the bike used, my first thoughts were the ECU was already flashed due to the higher then stock rev limiter. As I have been reading 100's of not 1000's of posts by now in 1/2 dozen sites, the consensus among a hand full of posters is the tachs errors on the high side along with the speedo. I have corrected the speedo with a piggy back circuit board and programed in a -6.5% decrease and when checking with a gps find it now to be accurate. I don't care to much about the tach error as with seat time I have now become familiar shifting at best torque/exhaust sound RPM without looking at the tach. Rook I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying what I have experienced on my bike. It might be possible that a certain group of ECU/tach/RPM sensor combo's are more accurate than others. In the mean time I thoroughly enjoy this bike and will continue to improve on it's performance and look forward to comments and suggestions from the knowledgeable folks on this forum!
Here is my evidence: (hope uploading the pic works)
[img][/img]

Yes, picture worked. What do you know? that needle is definitely past 11. You're watching this closer than I am. I've never actually filmed the rev limiter. I'd say 10000 indicated is about the perfect rpm for shifting. All of the discrepancies in the rev limiter rpm might have to do with actual rpm and indicated. If the tach indicates 11450 it must need about a -3.5% adjustment. I'll bet Romans got his rev limiter figure directly from the ECU and that must be right on the money.

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Part of me wonders if this isn't an issue where the RL doesn't kick in due to the speed the engine's gaining RPM. What I normally read is the tach isn't what the RL uses to kick in. Or to say, there's some other system the RL uses that is more accurate than the tachometer.

Ok, if that's true, and the engine is out revving the tach then should the RL start to kick in BEFORE 11 grand? My bike will rev past 11k (indicated) with the OE ECU. However, In 6th gear it will get to 11k and sit there. With the CBlast ECU it will continue to 11.5k. At tat point it's definitely accurate.

Myself I think the tachometer is accurate and does not suffer the same issues as the speedo, which is built to have error. My thought is tachometer is not a "highly accurate speedometer" because it is not graduated. However, i have a "highly accurate tachometer" and just in lower range testing have found the OE tach to be very accurate overall. (3k-4k range tach is spot on).

* Last updated by: VicThing on 4/9/2016 @ 6:01 PM *

What I normally read is the tach isn't what the RL uses to kick in. Or to say, there's some other system the RL uses that is more accurate than the tachometer.

Vic, you are right as I believe the ECU looks for the signals from the crank sensor (a reed switch or hall effect sensor) to determine the current RPM, then the ECU sends the signal to the tach. An electronic tach or speedo has a stepper motor which uses voltage for movement. Though movement is fairly quick, they still have too much latency to be accurate enough to be used for reference for a rev limiter or anything that needs precision such as spark timing, ign or fuel tables. An electronic signal from the crank is best here.

My bike will rev past 11k (indicated) with the OE ECU. However, In 6th gear it will get to 11k and sit there. With the CBlast ECU it will continue to 11.5k.

My stock ECU, like yours, ran to 11,500 in 5th and a max (indicated) 187 +/- 1 mph. In 6th gear my max RPM was only 11,000 and again 187 +/- 1 mph all with stock gearing. I believe 6th only ran to 11k (if you too are running stock gearing) because we are now bumping the speed limiter which is said to be 186 mph. Now here is the kicker. With my flashed ECU and the top speed limiter removed, a 6th gear run took me to that 187 +/- mph again and the speedo stopped YET I observed (by video playback) the tach continued to climb several hundred RPM with no speed increase. I will have to look into this a bit more but the electronic speedo may have stopped increasing due to a mechanical stop or the ECU has reached the max voltage output to the gauge. As to the accuracy of the tachs on our bikes I'm not sure what to say other than the rev limiter even with a stock ECU sent my tach much higher than Romans indicated limit of 11,050 with a slow run up in any gear.

An electronic signal from the crank is best here.

I think all the stock speedo/tach error comes from mechanical parts in the gauges. The signal from the crank sensor has to be dead on.

Now here is the kicker. With my flashed ECU and the top speed limiter removed, a 6th gear run took me to that 187 +/- mph again and the speedo stopped YET I observed (by video playback) the tach continued to climb several hundred RPM with no speed increase.

Strange. This might be their way of disabling the TSL. I thought it was possible to just flash the TSL to some speed you will never be able to attain like 230 mph or else just flash it to OFF.

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My data shows the stock ECU took longer to get to 140MPH but after that was quicker to top end. The flashed ECU gets to 140 quicker but takes longer from that point and struggles to top out at speeds where the stock ECU would get to and hit the speed limiter

WATT have I been saying all along?

Fresh as fresh can be. Why thank you, oh look a jelly creme filled of fried flashed -0101010+ not a cleaner 010101110100=stock.

Buy the book is you sure did buy a backup setting. DTT = Triggertrash a Threshold that won't cause a Discharge to calc out at the Truth Tables and oh btw, limp mode sound anything like Table Trash Discharging?

Signed,
NOLTT (no one listens to Trashtalker)

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I'm going to run the mile and my time is up to speed @6k and signs off, slows down, then creeps back up = Even Up.
I'm not going to flash my E, so slow as I go until 6k is off I went much faster = All Even.

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So after 7 bikes I'm going with Romes about ign gain is HP gain. And go2, you need to show me gray dots in the porcelain's nose is aluminum spit. Maybe then we can talk about lean conditions. We talk deep down and read the porcelain white is still lean is mean. Clean nose, nose problem. Ask me how I know?

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My beasts have alerted me to the presence of delicious pastries.

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This may be confusing to understand, but if you look at the cell blocks of that screen, 16 or 8 bit is all she wrote in that one cell block is a goto file of read. So you moved the square wave timing and moved the hertz to watch I know. But this is your generic move inside the brick.

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Schnitz ?

You know this stuff so well!!

Yes sir, have to always pay attention to what others are selling. Just in case the Magic Pill is found. To date I've seen all the flashes that are for sale, studied every cell, sorry to report, no magic.

On the dyno you may see gains. On the track with Ram Air in play flies out has proven to Be the winner. Your call.

My call is that I don't want to have to deal with them tiny secondary screws and Loctite again!

Can't say as I blame you. Pesky tings. Great for shimming tables.

I'll bet Romans got his rev limiter figure directly from the ECU and that must be right on the money.

Yes and no. In the ECU I raise my Rev limit to 13,500. Then I use the MSD SB6 to pull spark and timing at 11,500rpm. Prior to spark being pulled I have my Air Shifter is set to Automatically shift the bike at 10,800RPM. I have never Blown up a Turbo bike running this way. Shhhhh, this is my secret,, My bike is a different animal. RPM climbs too fast for me to skill fully push a thumb button at the exact same rpm every time. In short I don't trust me, so I let the computers do all the work. My job is to focus and keep her between the ditches. Sure is lots of fun. Love it.

Rook this may keep your motor safe if you copy. Just putting it out there. With a 80 shot RPM climbs fast,,,too fast. You will see.

So after 7 bikes I'm going with Romes about ign gain is HP gain. And go2, you need to show me gray dots in the porcelain's nose is aluminum spit. Maybe then we can talk about lean conditions. We talk deep down and read the porcelain white is still lean is mean. Clean nose, nose problem. Ask me how I know?

yep, second. gen1 pull a degree to 31.5 Insure a 13.1 AFR. From here bike will tell the story. Run a stock fuel map to start your testing. All Zero's in power commander. Report back

In the ECU I raise my Rev limit to 13,500. Then I use the MSD SB6 to pull spark and timing at 11,500rpm. Prior to spark being pulled I have my Air Shifter is set to Automatically shift the bike at 10,800RPM. I have never Blown up a Turbo bike running this way. ...Rook this may keep your motor safe if you copy. Just putting it out there. With a 80 shot RPM climbs fast,,,too fast. You will see.

Oh, I believe ya, Romes, it spools up fast enough without NOS. I wouldn't be putting all my trust in my thumb either.

BTW, i have the SB6 sitting here but I've made my mind up to go with the the DJ Ignition Module. Obviously the SB6 is capable of tuning above the 11,000 rpm rev limit. Does the DJ IM also have rpm rows that go above 11,000 rpm?

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BTW, i have the SB6 sitting here but I've made my mind up to go with the the DJ Ignition Module. Obviously the SB6 is capable of tuning above the 11,000 rpm rev limit.

hmmmm,,,,, What are you going to do with it ?

Does the DJ IM also have rpm rows that go above 11,000 rpm?

yes sir, 20,500 RPM,,,,, Lol you first. But please remember this can Not be used as a rev limiter.

hmmmm,,,,, What are you going to do with it ?

I'm sending the SB6 back to Summit Racing. MSD already refunded and and Summit applied to the IM and gave me back the difference. I'm sure they will send back to MSD...at least I hope so....what if they keep it? Free SB6, 100% profit if they sell, no loss if they don't? No--they wouldn't. Would they? Naaa. Summit Racing has a good relationship with MSD and I'm sure they would want to keep it that way.

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gofst should understand this one. Here's what I find as that flashed limp being sent with the loss at the top... "The pulse width of the output is determined by the design of the multivibrator and not by how long you hold down the push button."

So the point I'm making is a map number, push a button, and one more loop in the clinker, the OE is handcuffed to follow those certain integrated chipped parts and anything out of the truth tables is going to counter that design of the chip maker. The tick of 60hz and out of frequency you go was that random number and not a more formulated number across that map cell of cells.

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