Do load another map or still work on the one you sent me?

The first map I sent you is "your own" 6 Gear Map with AFR table Repaired and my Fueling Maps entered for all six gears. Remove and save for later use. Will only be needed after you master use of PCV software.

New PCV Map Built and Sent. Enjoy, your going to love that map. Promise.

1. Install New Map

2. Turn Auto Tune Off

3. Quick test ride

4. Report Back, need to know if stutter is still there. If so Fueling is Not your issue.

4. Report Back, need to know if stutter is still there. If so Fueling is Not your issue

Rick this is based on my "feeling" riding to work and back this morning. Suburban roads and Highway. I'm also comparing to the previous map you gave me (after I cleared the trims)

1. Idle is better with no surging, could be smoother.
2. She goes well but is not as responsive as before. Almost seems a bit "lazy" low down on gears 2-4. as i said this is my initial feeling. I need to ride more to be fair.
3. Rumble on decel is there but reduced and backfire is back at 3500rpm. This i can live with.
4. Stutter is still there.
It is only now when I decelerate and then open the throttle slowly at 3000rpm

So this got me thinking (and no it doesn't hurt lol) There is no flat spot, no power loss and no jerking. Also it never did this when she was new. So what changed, only the exhaust. Why - to get a better sound and also on my 2009 model it made more hp. at the same time dropped 20kg.

So i stayed with the original headers. Cut it off just after the O2 sensor. Leaving the standard O2 sensor in. I had a mid pipe made at 63mm with canister 320mm in length, also 63mm inside pipe. Checked there are no leaks and everything is tight.
When installing the Powercomander and auto tune the dealer put in an opitmiser because of the standard O2 sensor.

So questions I have
1. Could it just be sound resonating at that rpm? How would I be able to test this?
2. Could it be that the headers are now 4-1 and should rather be 4-2-1. How much could this difference affect it?
3. Does the diameter of the mid pipe and canister affect it. My previous Akropovic was 61mm.

So questions I have
1. Could it just be sound resonating at that rpm? How would I be able to test this?
2. Could it be that the headers are now 4-1 and should rather be 4-2-1. How much could this difference affect it?
3. Does the diameter of the mid pipe and canister affect it. My previous Akropovic was 61mm.

4. Stutter is still there

Ok, lets concentrate that the stutter is out of the Norm. I can't hear the bike so I'm going with there is still a problem.

1. Take the map I sent you make it all Zero's(Back To Stock Fueling)

2. Go for a quick ride, listen for any change. If No change

3. Remove 02 optimizer go back to Stock sensor set up.(My money lies here)

4. Go for quick ride, listen for any change. If No Change.

5. Head for Pair system. Insure idle control solenoid hose on right of fuel tank is back the way it was from factory. With bike running plug hole with your thumb insure vacuum. Bike sound should change instantly.

6. After this is done, If the smoking gun has Not shown itself, enable Auto Tune.

7. The New trims that show up in the RPM window of the stutter will tell us the rest of the story.

There is no flat spot, no power loss and no jerking. Also it never did this when she was new. So what changed, only the exhaust.

"Never did this when new" So when can fix it. Can't go forward with the tune until this has been resolved.

I had to look this up to better understand any and all possible issues.

Johannesburg is located in the eastern plateau area of South Africa known as the Highveld, at an elevation of 1,753 metres (5,751 ft)

6000 feet,,,02 optimiser ???? Looking forward to your next post.

So questions I have
1. Could it just be sound resonating at that rpm? How would I be able to test this?
A. Pull the hot side of the pc out of the loop. If this is a connector setup under the throttle body and off the crank sensor connectors, go back to stock. Leave the PAIR alone no matter the position. This is just one simple disconnect to remove a possible map input is all there is between the OE and a pig. Now test ride and if the stumble is still there, we can question the pipe and resonance.

2. Could it be that the headers are now 4-1 and should rather be 4-2-1. How much could this difference affect it?
A. Every little move in length/diameter/next section affects flow someway, somehow.

3. Does the diameter of the mid pipe and canister affect it. My previous Akropovic was 61mm.
A. Someone asked if running the header alone was going to affect performance. I said to take it off and do not place a pig on it. There was no stumble, no complaint about poor performance. Since I can't feel this stumble, is it a dirty air cleaner to a pipe to a map.
I. The air cleaner has yet to be changed/looked at for how many miles?
II. The pipe has yet to be swapped to the OE to catch a stumble or it never happened when you installed the pipe...
III... to begin with, then it's not the pipe. Then, back to the map and filter. Make sense?

Good to hear you are back Hub.
Bike has 3800 kms, air filter is still clean.

Romans

Sent you mails with recordings of the sound.

Is the Optimiser not there only to allow autotuner/pcv to work in "closed loop" area on Euro model ZZR? I didn't think it would be determined by the altitude, because the autotune would correct any altitude differences. I'm no expert only going on what I've read.

None the less here's what I done and results

1. Zero' map. - no change stutter still there
2. Removed Optimiser and ran stock O2 set up - no change
3. Ran your map without Optimiser - no change
4. Disconnected stock sensor (ran zero map and your map)- error light, still no change
5. Went to pair. Unblocked left hose and made sure both sides were back to factory. If I block right hand side, bike dies. If I block left hand side I get less noise. Both side make vacuum.

Will now test O2 sensor and see if that is correct. However if that was faulty I would have expected an error light. Who knows stranger things have happened.

"6. After this is done, If the smoking gun has Not shown itself, enable Auto Tune.
7. The New trims that show up in the RPM window of the stutter will tell us the rest of the story."

After testing lambda sensor, will refit with Optimiser. Will leave pair unblocked for now and will turn autotune back on. Will leave zero map on.

How much trim figures do you need. In other words is around the block good enough to give an indication on the trims or does it need a couple of kms like learning mode?

Cheers
Peter

Romans
Sent you mails with recordings of the sound.

Got sound clip.(copied Hub)Now were cooking with gas. Sure sounds like Fuel or like hub posted above Lack of Air. Filter is mint ?

ok

1. Leave all above as stock for now.

2. In the software setting Turn Fuel Cell Tracer ON. Check Mark.

3. Set Time for auto tune to start running 10 Seconds after started.

4. Go into software Trims make setting 12 in the minus 12 in the positive.

5. Turn Auto Tune On. Check Mark.

6. Your AFR Table Map Must now be adjusted. I want you to place 13.5 in every Cell. (We will talk more about that later)after This is done.

7. Start Bike

8. Bottom of your screen on the right make sure Green dot is lit(Auto Tune Running)

9. Leave laptop plugged in and watch fuel cell tracer(wait for bike to come up to temp).

Ok here is the important Part. Your job is to stare at computer screen and move the cell tracer up in the RPM window very very slowly. You will see the Cell tracer move up 3 boxes in the 0% row then tracer will jump into 2% row. The more you rev the cell tracer will jump into 5% Row.

DO NOT SLAM THROTTLE BACK AND FORTH, if you do testing of AFR is corrupted by you the user. In short you job is not to rev the piss out of it.

What we are doing is letting your 02 sensor have a long hard sniff. The sound of your bike you will hear change as Auto Tune will make be Exactly 13.5 AFR. The more it's off the more AFR #'s will cycle back and forth. Repeat this test untill trims stop adjusting.

If you have AFR gauge very easy to tell when #'s settle out. If not logging is only way just go slow.

Now I need to see that Map. Your trim #'s that get logged will tell the story of elevation air and fueling(please make sure Gas is not old)

Once you do this send me the map. I will be able to tell instantly what fueling your bike wants.

Watch bike temps.

That sound byte idling did not come thru.
Plugs: That's every 12km is the change out. How new are the plugs?

My understanding of the way Autotune functions:
1. AT will not tune a zero cell.
2. AT will only move a number if the cell holds one.
3. AT will need to be held more or less: every 250rpm increments up to WOT.
4. AT will continue to autotune itself until you save that map, i.e., seat of the pants, oh that felt the best. I better save this set of numbers.

Idle Test:
Fuel ~ Am I getting the pipe hot?
Spark ~ Are my plugs fuel/map fouled?

My test is to 'Literally' start and stop the engine. I have hundreds of fire-offs and those shot out and hit the header. So right at the top edge of the collar and that pipe: being the closest area to touch for a hot or cold pipe, see if we have a cold pipe.

This tells me more of a spark plug problem than chasing a spark sparkstick or an injector.
Injector: Can't be the injector, because this runs fine all up and down the rpm.
Sparkstick: Can't be the stick, because this runs fine all up and down the no codes run of it, as the injector is not spitting codes.

Fuel: Can't be bad fuel, lets take a ride.
Compression: Can't be compression is the given.
Spark: WATT are the odds a bad set of plugs, if the other two are out of the loop?

The 02 Disable Radio Click:

Speaking about loops, we need to disable the 02. Why? 02 is fixed to a lambda number of 14a: we round the numbers off. When fresh air enters out of that exhaust port it changes to 16a with PAIR in the loop.

With the 02 still in the loop, you set a 13a, the 02 sniffs that and leans you back out to 14a. It's a loosing battle trying to tune in CLOSED Loop.

Disable the 02 and that says you can run in OPEN LOOP and the pc's 02 is going to run the show and autotune to your 13a target and clean that number in or out of that cell. So seat of the pants, every-sustained-250rpm you can run on a straight long road, this will move the 13a out of that cell and run the better economy, better 'target' number, hitting more on the performance window of a cell move. This is my understanding of autotune and having the 02 in open or closed loops.

Romans - Map sent via e mail

Romans - Map sent via e mail

Got it. As you can see in order to get a 13.5 AFR # you needed to pull roughly 12% of fuel. Pair system is still in play so Auto Tune must Now be turned off.

1. Install Map I just sent you.

2. Turn Auto tune off.

3. Go ride the bike, make it stutter.

I hope you can't

Disable the 02 and that says you can run in OPEN LOOP and the pc's 02 is going to run the show and autotune to your 13a target and clean that number in or out of that cell. So seat of the pants, every-sustained-250rpm you can run on a straight long road, this will move the 13a out of that cell and run the better economy, better 'target' number, hitting more on the performance window of a cell move. This is my understanding of autotune and having the 02 in open or closed loops.

Hub I run my hose with a filter on it outside the air box. Forward moving TPS vacuum. Decell fresh air. For this test I just want to be sure it's a fueling issue. Sound was more of a gurgle.

Sound was more of a gurgle.

Is this on a low to mid rpm lift and when you do, the gurgle follows the rpm wind down or a blip of a gurgle and it's over?

Now I'm stumped. Loaded new map and now the bike won't start.
Lights come on, dash comes on, shows 12.5 volts but when you hit the start button I get a click and everything dies. Checked the fuses, all ok.
She got hot whilst doing the test, but no more than 100deg Celsius.

Tried push starting but wouldn't start.

Could it be the fans drain the battery to the point that it needs to be charged. Will charge the battery tonight and then try again in the morning.

Sound was more of a gurgle.
Is this on a low to mid rpm lift and when you do, the gurgle follows the rpm wind down or a blip of a gurgle and it's over?

This is only at 3000 rpm. It happens only when I decel and then open up slowly.

Now I'm stumped. Loaded new map and now the bike won't start.
Lights come on, dash comes on, shows 12.5 volts but when you hit the start button I get a click and everything dies. Checked the fuses, all ok.
She got hot whilst doing the test, but no more than 100deg Celsius.

Tried push starting but wouldn't start.

Could it be the fans drain the battery to the point that it needs to be charged. Will charge the battery tonight and then try again in the morning.

Go to the battery and make sure all connection are Clean and Tight.

Yes, if the posts are corroded this could hinder recharging so check the neg post so slide the battery out and check for tightness and looking for the white/green stuff on the cables.

Go to the battery and make sure all connection are Clean and Tight.

Did that first. Positive terminal was slightly loose. Still no start.
Had enough of it for today, so before I lose my sense of humour. I'd rather leave it alone and tomorrow will pull a battery from another bike and see if that starts her up.

There is no flat spot, no power loss and no jerking. Also it never did this when she was new. So what changed, only the exhaust.

I was about to run the rpm range. No flat spot, no jerking, never did it when new. Charge the battery, put the other map that felt better back in it, optimize it and you are done. Ready? "Takes a man to live with their [gurgling] mods made."

I was about to run the rpm range. No flat spot, no jerking, never did it when new. Charge the battery, put the other map that felt better back in it, optimize it and you are done. Ready? "Takes a man to live with their [gurgling] mods made."

OMG !

He tells me this sometimes happens when you're hot on the revs as in the test that I did for Romans.

She got hot whilst doing the test, but no more than 100deg Celsius.

Yikes, this paints me in a bad light. Maybe I will step back from online support ? More like make a run for it while I still can.

He tells you what exactly ? what happens at 100. I've been there countless times. Not a chance this has anything to do with it.

Your crank connector wire has the PCV ground wire taped to it. Clean it and reinstall. My bet is when you cleaned the wires and changed the battery the ground wire did not get reinstalled. Black wire falls down on black motor Easy to miss. Bike will turn over forever and Not Start without a ground. Call dealer and tell him this before he makes up a story and bills you some stupid amount.

Now that you have scared me, tell me "please" you did Not Boil That Bike. I will cry. See in my instructions above, "Watch Temps" if really only a 100deg your all good. But ya, you have me very very worried.

Romans no foul or harm done. you are in no way painted in a bad light. My choice of words may have been wrong.
I value your input, advice and suggestions.

It's not temperature related and the dealer didn't think it was a temp related issue either. Apparently this happens where oil is blown back via the breather tube into the air box. My oil was also a bit full from my last service so with the revving it spits out into the air box. I understand some zx10's do this as well.

As for my starting issue, it's got me baffled as well. I checked and double checked all the wires. The problem is that it doesn't turn over.
I pretty much did the map test yesterday and followed instructions( after each run I let her cool down)I was watching the temps and at 98 deg I would stop. Only on the last session did it get to 100, and after the radiator fans stopped on their own did I turn the engine off. She idled fine and didn't seem uncomfortable in any way. Just for good measure I had some fans on it as well. When I came back to start later after loading the map to test drive, it turned over once and died, similar to a dead battery. This is what made me believe it was a flat battery. I then charged the battery and when I turn the ignition on all lights etc came on, but as soon as I push the start button it clicks and everything dies. When I leave the button all comes on again.
I tried another battery from the Boulevard and it did exactly the same thing.

I spent the whole morning checking for loose connections, loose wires and anything not plugged in, just in case it got loose from vibration or I bumped or knocked a connection loose.

I noticed the breather pipe with the little catchment bottle was full. So when I pulled the bottle off I got more oil than what I bargained on. Around 2/3 of a cup.

It scared the crap out of me, I'm still under warranty so at this point I took it to a Kawasaki dealer rather than me chasing my own tail. He is trustworthy and won't charge me for something he didn't do. (At least I hope so)

Will give feedback as soon as he finds the fault.

* Last updated by: untamed on 11/17/2014 @ 7:53 AM *

Romans no foul or harm done. you are in no way painted in a bad light. My choice of words may have been wrong.
I value your input, advice and suggestions.

Phew, stress. I would hate to give any advice that gets taken the wrong way because I did not word it properly. Very hard online as you do not know how the other party will interpret your words. I assumed that you are very Mechanically inclined as you are working on your own bike and seem determined to find the issue.

The problem is that it doesn't turn over.

but as soon as I push the start button it clicks and everything dies. When I leave the button all comes on again. I tried another battery from the Boulevard and it did exactly the same thing.

Starter grounded or short ??? Brand new bike ?

I noticed the breather pipe with the little catchment bottle was full. So when I pulled the bottle off I got more oil than what I bargained on. Around 2/3 of a cup.

You said "My oil was also a bit full from my last service" Must ask whats a bit ?

Crankcase vapor is normal but 2/3 of a cup most certainly is Not ??? So what's pressurising crankcase. If this was a Turbo Bike I would ask you to order your pistons ASAP as the Top Lan Ring is Burn't causing blow by. Blow by pushing oil up the vent tube. But this is Not a boosted bike. Engine does Not turn over is the worry, if starter/batt turns out to be ok ?????

We had one other thread here where a member had a new bike doing the exact same thing. Allot of Oil In The Air Box Not going to scare you with the rest of the story but if can find the link I will post it.

Would love to see those spark plugs. Maybe your stutter problem is about to show itself. How many miles on bike ?

Starter grounded or short ??? Brand new bike ?

You said "My oil was also a bit full from my last service" Must ask whats a bit ?

How many miles on bike ?

Rick - all good, bike is running with no permanent harm done.

I think I owe the technician a lot more credit than what I originally gave him.
He knew the symptons and he has seen it before. It's a combination of oil level too high (not my doing, but I won't be lazy to remove excess oil next time) and high revs at low throttle position. As I did in the test runs. It could also be that it took three rounds for the trims to settle and maybe the fourth was not needed, and this put the last bit of pressure on the oil. Next time I would have stopped at three. I would also keep an eye on oil levels and check after each round. It's obviuosly different if I was on a Dyno. This was done in my garage at home.

In any case the oil was pushed up through and into the cylinder and the air box. I think the correct term is "hydrolock" this is what then stops the piston from moving and thus the whole motor won't turn.
I learn something new everyday.

None the less I will fetch her on Saturday and then we can take it from there. I did however ask him to have a look at the stutter after he changed the plugs. He is of the same opinion as Hub's last comment. Run with the map that ran the best and live with the gurgle. The map you gave me the first time was still best. Or at least that's how it felt.

Will let you know once she's back.

This was done in my garage at home.

The oil being overfilled contributed to the... What? Oil stopped the engine? No way would the bike stop and you not witnessing the oil being pumped out of the pipe all burned and smoking. Here's another thing. 'Hydraulic lock' is you compress the oil, this bends the crank's con rod, because it's still compressing oil, but the head won't move, the valves and rings are sealed, then the only relief is for the rod to bend so it reaches TDC to turn over and bend the other rods.