You mean these types of drag racers?

Yeah, I guess. People who go to the strip often and have runs measured by high end equipment that is a part of the track facilities. I'm not knocking video equipment on the bike but I'd expect some drag racers would examine that for time also like you did. Regardless of how it was determined, if Bishop discovered his stock ECU was as good as his flashed one, hopefully he would say something...or somebody who tested stock v flash would. I can easily see how a drag racers technique alone might might improve from one day to the next or the weather was better or the track was better, etc... but some of these people have been racing for years, decades. I'd think someone like Smokin would come forward and expose flashing as a fraud if that's what it is. Also, I know Romans has tested flashing enough to know if it was all a bunch of hooey. In this case, it sure seems it was. Something is up with your situation if 100 other people get a flash and we don't have at least one notice it's the same as stock.

...yet I don't see anyone coming forth here with evidence to support that the flash is faster..

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/3/2015 @ 8:35 AM *

---

I'm so glad I read this thead. Without this information I might unknowingly challenge a stock bike and lose.
Phew. Bullet dodged!

---

I just got my daughter's swim lap timer out and di my level best to time these runs. I must admit, it is VERY difficult to hit the button on time. I had to rely on my reaction time. Seems like I'm a bit slower on the button that you in most cases. Also, it's pretty hard to rely on see/hear the tach/engine hit 11,000 rpm when we are considering tenths of a second.

Here's the times I got:
stock.....Flash
6.34......6.65 slower
6.74......6.75 slower/same
7.38......6.65 faster/still not as fast as best stock run/you said the third stock run was some kind of fluke?...
6.72......6.54 faster
9.68......9.43 faster

I have no doubt you used your editing equipment to find the exact moment you openned thethrottle and the exact moment the tach hit 11k. I timed each run a few times and found the times for each run to be pretty consistent. My reaction time is a factor in the total time clocked but the difference between the flash and stock should not be effected by that. I didn't do the last few runs because this has eaten up a good portion of my morning already bu seems to me the flash is faster on the last two runs I clocked, slower on the first three. At the end of the day, I guess I'd have to say I'd expect more from a flash. It should at least be as fast as stock almost all the time. I'd still have to see some 1-5 gear WOT runs to make a clear judgement.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/3/2015 @ 10:07 AM *

---

...also, this does confirm how little this all matters to anyone who is not racing competitively. For those of us in this category, this stuff is all just fun and games.

---

ROOK! Are you saying you have both a flashed and non-flashed ECU??

I thought from your previous comments that you had not dived into the flashed arena yet!

In any case, thanks to you too for doing the work and posting your results!

---

NO, I was timing Vic's video on p 1 of this thread. He shows his 3 runs in 4th and 3 in 5th. 3 runs with stock and 3 with flash. I have not yet gotten a flash. For my Gen1, I don't believe it could possibly be any better than a PCV and an ignition module. Same thing, really. Apparently the Gen1 doesn't gain any advantage from raising the rev limiter, even. For my NOS setup, I don't want fueling and timing for an NA bike so a flash isn't of any benefit to me. For you guys with the Gen2, it would be nice to have cooling fans come on quicker and higher rev limit and IDK what else a flash might offer. As far as fueling and timing, that's where you get your power increase from. IDT think there is any mystery to that. The optimum safe AFR is known and so are the timing maps. Why would anyone do anything different than what has already been proven to be the best? Of course, you can always go leaner and use more aggressive timing but then you have bikes blowing up.

I might flash one day when I get my self tuning situated just so I can have a higher rev limiter ...just to have it, I guess.

---

To me, I think this thread by Vic and many other related posts questioning flash results and reliability on this site and others prove conclusively that flashing is not a 100% positive modification.

Some people swear by it. And that's great.
Some people don't. And that's not so great.
Some people have problems. Sometimes serious. And that's bad.

But varying results and levels of satisfaction abound.

In the past I've always read the glowing reports of flashing.
And I've always wanted the best for my bike.
So I did it.
But note how the negative flash stories are not really posted? It was a while till I posted mine so I am to blame as well.
Its unfortunate these negative flash experiences are not all voiced to give better balance.
But we all know they are definitely out there!

So without the negative posts how was I suppose to get an accurate idea of all the challenges?

I can categorically say this.
If I knew then what I know now from my flash experience and issues, plus the varying and negative results that seem to be coming forward recently, I would never have got it done.
I would have left all as Kawasaki had designed on this very important and key part of the bike and would never had to worry about concerns of "Have these changes compromised my bike or ECU in any way?".
Yes, I know that some will read the modification list on my bike and say "If that is your way of thinking why didn't you leave your bike as 100% stock standard?".
But note there is no debate or concerns on these other modes.

I now have a custom ECU flash/tune that was done onsite with a dyno and specifically designed for my bike and its individual modifications and attributes.
But still I have the occasional thought of "Is everything okay as the key ECU settings have now been changed from factory?".

This is all just me and my opinion.

But one thing cannot be denied.
Whether good or not so good, there is far too much conjecture and varying opinion to suggest flashing is an exact science.

And that in itself is a concern.

Lastly, thankyou and well done Vic.
You went to the trouble of setting up and testing at your own expense and time and had the balls to post your results no matter what they were.
I know you meant no disrespect to anyone and you just wanted the facts.
Perhaps people wont agree 100% with your testing method, but at least you had a go and all can make their own decisions.

Nice Work...

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/3/2015 @ 5:06 PM *

---

Flashed bike,no top speed limiter how often can I take advantage of that?runs cooler and better mileage, that would be nice.change traction control on the fly, that's also nice. Traction control not defaulting to mode one that I don't like, if you forget it's off shit can happen. What about if the effect of altitude on fuel maps in a flash

---

Coolest thing I've heard is different flashes - flashed to different power modes.

---

I've got a dyno sheet with my old pc v tune and c blast flash side by side.
I'll look for it and post.

---

I just got my daughter's swim lap timer out and di my level best to time these runs. I must admit, it is VERY difficult to hit the button on time. I had to rely on my reaction time. Seems like I'm a bit slower on the button that you in most cases. Also, it's pretty hard to rely on see/hear the tach/engine hit 11,000 rpm when we are considering tenths of a second.

Here's the times I got:
stock.....Flash
6.34......6.65 slower
6.74......6.75 slower/same
7.38......6.65 faster/still not as fast as best stock run/you said the third stock run was some kind of fluke?...
6.72......6.54 faster
9.68......9.43 faster

I have no doubt you used your editing equipment to find the exact moment you openned thethrottle and the exact moment the tach hit 11k. I timed each run a few times and found the times for each run to be pretty consistent. My reaction time is a factor in the total time clocked but the difference between the flash and stock should not be effected by that. I didn't do the last few runs because this has eaten up a good portion of my morning already bu seems to me the flash is faster on the last two runs I clocked, slower on the first three. At the end of the day, I guess I'd have to say I'd expect more from a flash. It should at least be as fast as stock almost all the time. I'd still have to see some 1-5 gear WOT runs to make a clear judgement.

Rook I don't mean to be offensive with what I'm going to say. But you're either not reading what I'm posting, or not paying attention to it, maybe you're just skimming? I've covered all of this in this thread. You can't be serious about trying to use some digital timer and comparing your times to what I listed... that's nutbar factor 6.

What I did was analyze the video in this manner. The start time is the frame the needle moved above 4k. Video is being recorded at 30 fps, which means a frame every .0333... seconds. The variance is <.1 second in any run. It's not like when the SWL comes on it's spread over 100 frames. In one frame it's OFF, the next it's ON. The ON frame becomes the ending time stamp. So let's say it happened at 15.041 and the frame's time stamp was 15.043. That's .02 variance.

The starting frame had to be looked at a little more carefully, and I assure you that it is possible and accurate to tell the single very frame the tach needle moves off 4k. This is what I identified, and again even if I was 1 or 2 frames off this would be <.0666... seconds variance. I'm confident in the start and stop times as posted, as I've said nearly ad nauseum at this point the numbers are what they are.

Remember the speedometer error test I did a while back? I used the same method. I also posted screen shots of the mile markers. This was beneficial to this test, it showed me that the variance created did not greatly impact the results, even at say 3 frames different points. Even at 30 fps the mile marker at the side of the road did not have the identical place as the previous one, but this was insignficant as the difference may have been 77.82 mph vs. 77.85 mph. Do you see what I'm saying? That's the level of accuracy in my test method.

Consider this, blinking takes 300 400 milliseconds, that's somewhere around 1/3rd to 1/2 second. Now, divide that by 10 and that's the variance in the times in this testing.

Also you misunderstand the runs. There were 8 runs with each ECU total.

I just can't believe that I wasted all that money to go only 208mph
when I could have saved my money or at least spent it on a steak dinner.
And probably have gone 210mph or more ....
DAM!!!!
What was I thinking

---

Yannih

Thanks for the support Yannih. Overall no one's been overly negative to these test results really. I suppose some are reasonably suspicious and maybe unreasonably skeptical.

In the past I've always read the glowing reports of flashing.

And here in lies the crux of the issue. I never bought into this because I knew from my motorcycling experience a long time ago that pipes and other common mods typically have very little performance impact. In fact, the very bike I had I read a review that adding full exhuast on my bike at the time actually slowed it down in the 1/4 about 3/10ths. But that was at benefit of better top end. For drag racing, it was bad. For a track, it was better.

If you know me since I've been here, I've never been one of they "hypers" like when I put my exhaust on being all like "yeah I put my yosh pipes on and man my bike is way way faster". This is what your typical flat brimmer does. They do not provide valuable information, just like advertising. Was my bike any faster after adding the pipes? Hell if I know. Maybe, maybe not, quite honestly didn't really seem like it. But I loved the noise, liked dropping 20+ lbs, and like the looks way better.

Most "glowing reports" are about as good as just saying "the product I bought didn't explode". Other than that, the "oh yeah man it's totally rad" is useless and not helpful at all. Very few actually have some kind of objective information. Butt dyno cannot be trusted.

I just can't believe that I wasted all that money to go only 208mph
when I could have saved my money or at least spent it on a steak dinner.
And probably have gone 210mph or more ....
DAM!!!!
What was I thinking

Most of us agree with gearing a completely stock 14R would hit 200. So yeah...maybe you did waste some money. I don't know...

Let’s not forget that what is being discussed here is the result of one particular flash/tune. Extrapolating these results into saying that all flashes are bad is silly. It’s like saying all dynojet tuning is bad just because someone installed a poorly tuned map.

* Last updated by: roadczar on 7/4/2015 @ 11:00 AM *

^^
I appreciate the intention of this thread. Ie the intention to measure something objectively.
A few questions. Objective ones...

1) My experience with my C flash is completely different than Vic. Ex as soon as flash went in the bike the difference was noted. Response was immediate. Way more power. Robust mid range.
2) You say you're objective. Did this appraisal (of your Cflash) come after your falling out with CBLAST or before? How is your relationship now? I ask C these same questions.
3) You have some "how to's" videos posted. Are you now a tune expert? Do u tune bikes everyday like C does? Does anyone providing a flash - tune bikes daily and/or work at a reputable motorcycle tune shop?
4) Did you read the latest post on Romans Flash thread. Particularly where he challenges the notion that an ecu flash cannot make a bike slower?

Looking forward to some objectivity.
W

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 7/4/2015 @ 2:59 PM *

---

to measure something objectively.

So fucking objective I was booted off and now here we are months later. I asked basic questions we should all know we sit around and bench race. He was out of his element then as he is out of his element now. Guys saw his BS and called him on it. I'm not the only one. Yannih got cold feet; the confidence flew right out the window.

1) Objectively. Your ass and Vic's are two different assfactors. Vic needs a tire change as if swapping those black boxes would lift the bike up like I saw, but really, I can tell who is going to do watt that low an rpm.

As soon as flash went in the bike the difference was noted; says you and so says Vic's numbers... objectively speaking. Not my problem his fat ass couldn't tell a squirt in the numbers change... coming on-signing off, right?

The Response was immediate and where are we in rpm and gear? 'Way more power and Robust mid range;' sure sounds like a backup limp in low grunt power.

2) So objectively, Ivan/Brock/Ryan/Don go pissing off their current customers, and now I'm out of the loop about this falling out? The fuck gives a flying shit, I just gave you a list of providers and yannih is on this C list, now Vic is having an issue with provider-C? How more objective do you want we discuss good business ethics? Is Wee owed a return of an ECU and winds up with a brick? Ivan jumped that hurtle. Romes pays for it and his rep is safe.

As objective as I can get in the business vs. customer end, at least Ivan is out of the loop for any damage to the customer's property. How would he have handled it I don't know? I've seen how Romes has handled it. I won't bring in Don, no history known. JCheeze melted one and how did he handle it?

The 'How is your relationship now? I ask C these same questions.' is again, the net is a whole new ballgame when it comes to business. I've had quotes for painting, roof repair, this, that and most of them have websites. They are up front about how they know they can have word of mouth spread on the net. So their business is hanging there on every customer they take on. You have to be so polite, do the ass kissing it takes, etc. I wish C could speak his mind like he does, but oh well, the public is going to sign the report card and stamp it right up the old keysteer.

3)Are you now a tune expert, Vic? Takes nothing but junk science to hold 4k, make one throttle move and be that consistent with one tune. I think it was one tune and try? Expert in 4k-WOT? I didn't see a missed shift, hear a bad bang-thru. That was expert enough for me and let the clock count off the consistencies. Did he tune it? No. Is he in business to tune? No. This falls back on C and Nel as far as 'experienced in tuning.'

As far as tune bikes everyday like C does, is that when a tune comes in? Perhaps changes tires and oil? Full tune ups with valve adjust and sync? And what background are we talking? He's been in the bike industry all his life, couple of years out of the loop, but back at it again? Or he's one of them MMI gad you ate and missed how many classes?

And as far as work at a reputable motorcycle tune shop, I think his shop skills are in need of help; if the shop has this kind of reputation; some driveability issue shows up? Take the stumble thread for example. The tune diagnosis was, "lean hunts," was C's rep on the line. I'm no tuner but I corrected C, and the OP leaned it out more and it cleaned up C's diagnosis even more. If that does not say, welcome to The Big Tent, it takes a little bit of [cock sure] tuning skills to know the difference.

4)he challenges the notion that an ecu flash cannot make a bike slower? Yeah, sort of like this. Like saying you can't make the bike slower using a pc. Stock goes so far. Uncorking air goes so far. The bike is as slow as it's going to get; be it hacked/flashed/stock. Get it? Now, uncork it with pipe/pc/turbo/porting/cams/fuels/spark/etc. That sort of make sense how I read it?

---

It's not my job to be a tuning expert. That's why I paid $400 to someone. What went wrong? Where is the performance? Not my job to know. I included the type of exhaust I have, fuel, air filter, etc. How different would this thread be if the test results were consistently 3/10ths faster with the flash? Just because it didn't go your way don't blame me or the test.

Maybe CBlast should do the same testing I did and see if his results replicate mine. Again, I don't consider the CBlast flash slower, just no faster. I can live with a tolerance of .1 second on the test. So I paid $400 for TSL, KTRC, and RL increased 500 rpm, a flash that I could've got at Schnitz for $75.

Other important things to consider is C's claims about sound, fuel mileage, and I'm not even sure whatever this is about revving like a literbike is even supposed to mean. None of these make any sense to me, and this I've stated all along. It's obvious to me that people can't do back to back stock to flashed ECU cannot tell these are all false. I mean seriously, who has fuel logs? Who recorded exhuast sounds for a before and after?

to Hub's point, yes I was extremely careful conducting these test. And that was on purpose. I wanted to give as little excuse as possible to reject results. So yes, there was not going to be any question of the running state of the bike. Fresher oil, fresher tires, fresher plugs (4k miles), fresher air filter (4k miles), fresher TB sync, etc. All of that needed eliminated as something to invalidate the test results (whether positive or negative). Weather was not going to be a factor and it wasn't. I wasn't even going to let fuel level be a factor, a couple gallons could be worth a tenth.

Wolfman your position in this whole thing is you are incapable of being impartial or objective. You're literally friends with the person you're supporting. For me, being friendly, nice, or whatever doesn't pass muster when a $400 bill is involved.

Let’s not forget that what is being discussed here is the result of one particular flash/tune. {snip}

Do Cblast and/or the other flashers state that the flash they sell you may or may not actually provide a performance improvement?

---

I included the type of exhaust I have, fuel, air filter, etc.

I think you are getting the same exact map everyone else gets. You adding what you have is more me looking at the standard joke you think it makes a difference and he is going to change something for it? You'd have to sent me random Cblast ECU's to see, unless you have the software to look and now match it with someone's other blasted map.

things to consider is C's claims about sound, fuel mileage

I see a 13a+ fuel trim and if you think you'll get better mileage, try a loop in 12a vs 14a.

Wolfman ... you are incapable of being impartial or objective.

That's why back then we were hearing too much of Wolfy's impartial being very partial to one tune. And I had to cool your jets so the impartial came back in. You've gotta see that. Vic sees it and I sure did.

---

I think you are getting the same exact map everyone else gets. You adding what you have is more me looking at the standard joke you think it makes a difference and he is going to change something for it? You'd have to sent me random Cblast ECU's to see, unless you have the software to look and now match it with someone's other blasted map.

I can neither confirm nor deny this. Cblast request this information. My gut feeling (always has been even before getting a flash) is that you are correct in reality. But again, you know how I feel about "feel". It never made any sense to me that adjustments could be made to tune for some exact specific exhaust without having access to that exhaust system.

I would recommend simply removing the ecu and packing it in a box with a return shipping label and a note on exhaust setup.

There's an old saying about marriage; love is not enough. In motorcycle tuning, passion is not enough. I don't care what a dyno sheet says, that's toilet paper. If people are paying $400 for a flash that does the equivalent of a $75 flash well that's just...

WRT Passwording
There is one other issue about WRT flashers and that's the password issue. IMO if the ECU is going to be modified in a way which prohibits further modifications by other flash services this should be stated so.

Ivan is unbricking ECU's and there you go... no burnt parts if you think about it. Make sense? So my instinct said, I see that software functioning. So Who kinked the binary to send The Bricks to Ivan? Where I am in the no slam camp, but camp can't get it right.

Now, to be objective again is this angle. I am in camp my flash w/pig. I think I said use autotune we lose a sensor or not? The not is, look at how many pigs I have mounted on my bike, I'm anti-oink more out of it?
Ivan - FP
Don - FP
Hand - FP
Now for the other tuners:
Cblast - F

That's bench racing 3 to 1. Wa'hap'inn? At 3 to 1 it still places C and [alleged] company in some other tuning camp. I can't help you wit the camp slam on my tuning numbers, Vic's numbers. It is what it is.

---

Pretty funny Hub, I understood what you said for the most part.... LOL
I don't think he said he "can un-Cbrick anything", specifically not a 3A error. Regardless it's cool that he is offering to help people out and possibly their $500 paperweight.

I do feel bad for the victims that are affected by it. ...truly a shame...if there is anything that I can do to help the members that are affected call me on the phone during business hours to discuss your individual problem. Not all can be helped, but maybe some cases can be.
I wonder if the people who are affected will hold the offending parties to the same standard as they hold me to and rip them to pieces in public like others have done to me ??
Ivan

---

I don't think he said he "can un-Cbrick anything", specifically not a 3A error.

Understood. Here is how I read this quote. "Not all can be helped, but maybe some cases can be." The ones he can save says to me, some can be helped, not most, not all, say some can be unbricked.

I am back to thinking that even a 3A is not burnt at the board, or its parts. See where I'm trying to diagnose a component in the either or? It shows me... There are only two moves out of that black box? Soft or hard, meaning, it's either a software glitch, or the hardware has some poor soldering bubble and the heat took it out, to an IC part burned out; is that chip the code is sent to, but it is not. I can still see one single path... is wire in is wire out; no problem found = Hardware side.

Where you probably already read somewhere how I'd write over the 3a; if I knew what I was doing... Start-run-debug-ok... Begin coding, 'read this file if 3a has anything to do with it, dump it, use this, etc.' Yeah, it's not that simple is where do you even start?

---

Vic - Don't know if you mentioned it, but will you be requesting a refund for the flash? (or maybe a partial refund if it;s accomplishing some of the claimed goals for you)

---