Trust me, even at my age I think I can hang wit chew boys. (spits on the ground, hit's the dog's head). And don't bring your fucking rear brakes! LOL... NOT KIDDING!

I know you can hang Hub, screw all the debate and let's just go ride and get our lean on! That's WOT it's all about! Not the hokey pokey.

---

Even if you had a flash and all you want is the AFR, the AFR would be for someone else's engine. Basically a map. If its a good map, it should work good for your engine but I have to think a custom tune for your engine and your mods would be even better. So, it's either a PC5 and tune yourself or you get a custom tune and flash the tune from the dyno to your ECU. I went the rout of PC5 and Autotune years before anyone was flashing ZX-14s because I did not want to be running back and forth to the tuner at $300/crack. That being said, I have yet to do ANY tuning at all except for a single Autune fuel trim accept. If you think you'll be like me and not have time to mess with self tuning right away, maybe the flash is best for you. If you get a PC5, you'll be running a map anyway unless you get the bike tuned or buy the extra equipment to do it yourself. Also, if you self tune properly using Autotune, I believe you will need to redline in fifth gear and roll off slowly which means you will need to be willing to annihilate the speed limit. You might need to do it a few times. That's about all the info I can give you on Autune now. Like I said, I haven't really used it enough to give instruction.

Except for the option to change AFR, I'm still wondering why a flash would be better than a PC5. The answers I have gotten surround the notion that ECU does not have to be interrupted. I don't understand why interrupting the ECU is such a big deal. My ECU has been interrupted for 5 years and the bike doesn't seem to mind at all.

---

This is from a guy that has been tuning since the 70's :

"I've been tuning multi-cylinder race bikes since the late 70's. Personally I prefer WRT for the street bikes as you can maintain cylinder offset and gear based maps. It comes down to cost and pose. You can fork out big bucks for a piggy back and show everyone that you have one. Or you can pay less and feel the difference. But you won't have anything to show off except a drag strip tab."

---

Well, all I've got to say about this stuff is I know for a damned FACT that, you can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish DAMNIT!!! LMAO

Sic

---

Even if you had a flash and all you want is the AFR, the AFR would be for someone else's engine. Basically a map. If its a good map, it should work good for your engine but I have to think a custom tune for your engine and your mods would be even better. So, it's either a PC5 and tune yourself or you get a custom tune and flash the tune from the dyno to your ECU. I went the rout of PC5 and Autotune years before anyone was flashing ZX-14s because I did not want to be running back and forth to the tuner at $300/crack. That being said, I have yet to do ANY tuning at all except for a single Autune fuel trim accept. If you think you'll be like me and not have time to mess with self tuning right away, maybe the flash is best for you. If you get a PC5, you'll be running a map anyway unless you get the bike tuned or buy the extra equipment to do it yourself. Also, if you self tune properly using Autotune, I believe you will need to redline in fifth gear and roll off slowly which means you will need to be willing to annihilate the speed limit. You might need to do it a few times. That's about all the info I can give you on Autune now. Like I said, I haven't really used it enough to give instruction.

Except for the option to change AFR, I'm still wondering why a flash would be better than a PC5. The answers I have gotten surround the notion that ECU does not have to be interrupted. I don't understand why interrupting the ECU is such a big deal. My ECU has been interrupted for 5 years and the bike doesn't seem to mind at all.

As mentioned before I'm a computer guy so I'm not really afraid of doing some tuning or updating maps etc. In computing, the term interrupt has a specific meaning. If in regards to ECUs/PCV and FI systems it means the same thing as in computing (which could very well be) interrupt does not mean what we generally think of as interrupting, like "excuse me you interrupted me".

CPUs operate using interrupts. Interrupts are a request for service. Any CPU is constantly being "interrupted" (or more accurately being sent interrupt request). In your computer you're using, millions of interrupt request are being sent to your CPU every second. Every time you type on your keyboard, your CPU receives an interrupt to process keyboard input. All the different subsystems in your computer (graphic card, I/O chips, audio, etc.) request CPU time using interrupts. Interrupts are part of the very nature of how computing systems work. It's basically how any external device tells the CPU something needs done. So an ECU is literally going to be constantly interrupted, by sensing systems and other systems which the ECU must communicate with to make the bike work. Without interrupts, the ECU wouldn't do anything.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if on the street, people have heard the term "interrupt" ("PCV five is interrupting your ECU..that sucks") when they don't actually understand what it really means. Assuming that I'm correct, and what I describe above is what is actually happening that the street believes is "interrupting" (as in misdirecting, annoying,) this is actually essential activity for the PCV to communicate with the ECU in the same way the ECU communicates with all the other sensing systems on the bike. Performance impact would be none.

Fact 1 no moto gp or race professional tunes with a Piggy back
Fact 2 no one better to tune a 14r than one who rides one close to the limit (sorry Mr Wool stop sucking your thumb).
Fact 3 an ecu flash can deliver and exceed the performance character of a piggy back
Fact 4 if you have stock in PC5 - dump it now
Fact 5 I had my moto dyno tuned with a PC5. Lots of money to do so. Pulled it, flashed it and never looking back
Fact 6 matters not how you approach this, there are multiple paths to power. Follow a course that makes you happy and says in your budget. Everyone has a right to an opinion.
Fact 7 Hagrid is a word smith and smart

---

The interrupted time-series design provides an estimate of the causal effect of a discrete intervention. In its simplest form, the design begins from a long series of repeated measurements on a D EPENDENT VARIABLE . The I NTERVENTION breaks this T IME SERIES into preintervention and postintervention segments, and a data analysis compares the means of the dependent variable in the two periods. Rejecting the N ULL HYPOTHESIS of no difference between the means is taken as evidence that the intervention influenced the series. Figure1 illustrates an unusually clear example of the design's logic. The data come from a 1978 study by A. John McSweeny and consist of 180 months of local directory assistance calls in ...

You know those many legged 555 timers? I'm going to ping.. "from a long series of repeated measurements on a dependent variable. The intervention breaks this time series into pre and post intervention segments, and the data compares these means so it throws the switch as it rejects the NULL hypothesis.' Thus, all the diodes switching from one logic gate to the next of accept or reject or never use or use this hi/lo range I intervene on that wheel spin is a, 'series of repeated tone wheel window moves are not sunk with the front wheel = Interrupt my black line I'm leaving on the tarmac.

NOR gates.
NAND gates.
OR gates.
AND gates.
Look 'em up. These are the intervening tools.

---

Fact 1 race professionals still tune with a Piggy back. That's why dynojet is out at every national as a sponsor with free tuning on their rolling dyno, they come rolling up in a huge rig on race day. Yes, legal to run a kitECU type or same as saying I can flash [just so much] in my ECU, but [not as much] as a full blown race flashing kitECU from the factory. GP boys are stuck with a fixed ECU or an ECU you can change the tune with. So duc snuck in their tunable ECU at the last minute switch, where honda thought they all [agreed with everyone to use a fixed], so they are stuck with not touching theirs. I believe this how that strategic move went down. It was a backmarker move to get up front and look at duc hanging in there with the other dominating factories. So if you have 40 grand for an ECU or some crazy number for that setup, a couple hundred dollar dj seems a lot cheaper, yes? And I'm going to guess around 4 grand for a kit type ECU from the factory? I may be way off if not more.

Fact 2 no one better to tune a 14r than a dyno. (sorry Mr Wool stop sucking your thumb). I've got plenty to suck on with no idle and shitty shifting. So much for messing with the black box.

Fact 3 a toggled/layered ecu flash delivery still pounds out a 14a. If we run the lean to rich scale of AFR, we find that 'most torque' is in the 11-12a range. To say a 14a exceeds the performance character of a piggyback is if we look at it this way, it's the back and forth price to retune-retune-X's ??? to the most torque? So a pig would get you there and toggle off to a straight 13a tune or wherever that flash is set at. Plus my accel mode for that vacuum hit I see that rich save to the knock of who gets in there faster, no accel goes lean or accel goes rich grunt?

Fact 4 if you have stock in PC5 - dump the one map to all 0's so you run the flash. Toggle the 'rich range' now on the fly. I've flashed and see 14a as the number. I pc and toggle from 12 to 13a then stock to 14a. On the fly, I can pull over and toggle up more fly. I forget the combo but here I am with 7 to 9 tunes on the fly, I'm swapping connections and toggling map after map, now this flashit shift shit. I think I've come full circle playing with pre{flash] and [pc]post cells and AFR moves. More fuel maps being made, more flash moves made. Shitty shifting, here comes ROM.

Fact 5 'I had my moto dyno tuned with a PC5. Lots of money to do so. Pulled it, flashed it and never looking back.' The fact is I need a dyno and I am not about to blow out another wire off that cct and hear a rattle until the oil reaches the top end; no thank you; where am I going with this? Oh, a smoothing effect? Lots of that happens rich, right? So back to my assdyno is more a Tonetushtuning exercise. Because it's all about tone change with my moves. that DFI is ringing (on vid) in my ear.

Fact 6 matters how you approach this. It takes multiple pockets in the trousers you go reaching around and around looking for paths to power. Follow the herd if it makes you happy and say, how's the budget going? Everyone has a ton of opinions to wire the bike the way you want it or make it clean and simple, but do not go up against Smoke withatrick PEE SEE? Why, he threw out that opinion about beat 'The Hand' with the BBQ sauce on his grips>> from the pig install. He's cheating! Someone go up to his grips and smell if they are hickory or just plain "Smoked!" ((year | ass)).

Fact 7 Hagrid has a way with words, yes: smith ear weens I have to look those up. A well read individual and smart for sure.

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/29/2014 @ 8:05 AM *

---

Fact 7 Hagrid is a smart

Never before has one man been so eloquently correct.

---

Vic, Having an extended warranty provides great piece of mind in case you do have a problem.

I understand your concern about having the warranty you paid good money for being voided if you flash your ECU so let me use an example. You add a set of slip-ons, 3 months later an injector goes bad and you burn a piston which requires an expensive engine tear-down and rebuild. Kawasaki denies your claim because you added the slip-ons which were not factory approved, so you appeal the decision. Kawasaki has to PROVE that a lean condition was caused as a result of you adding slip-ons, which in this case is not true, you had a faulty injector and this was the cause of the failure. Lets say you have a warped brake rotor, your warranty can't be denied because you re-flashed your ECU, even if they were somehow to figure it out which is unlikely. From a PR stand point it is highly unlikely Kawasaki would ever deny a claim because of the ECU even if it did cause a problem, Big K REALLY likes to keep their customers happy and have gone to extremes at times to do so.

---

First I appreciate all/ most of the information on this forum and I try to contribute myself with my experiences on products used on my own 09 zx14. I do not have a dog in this discussion but really want to do my own testing on PC5/AUTOTUNE VS ECU FLASH. That being said, I have the PC5 and Autotune on my bike now. I am going to a dyno soon and will post the numbers so everyone will see. cblast if you send me a ecu to test after my first run with pc5&AT I will dyno my bike with the ECU and post the results. Total independent testing with real final results. After the run I will return ECU or buy it from you if the results are better. My email address is bachapman@netzero.net if you are interested.
Bruce

I had a warranty claim when my #3 rod poked through the block with 3,600 miles. The Kawi regional rep came to my dealership and closely examined the bike for any signs of a PC or that the ECU had been removed and flashed. They told me if my ECU was flashed they would deny my warranty claim for the engine. My bike was stock, so they had to cover it under warranty.

Vic, I also got the 4 extra years of warranty. I'd recommend getting a spare ECU on ebay or somewhere and put the flash on that. Put the stock ECU back in if you need warranty repair.

Sebastian, you could do a 'Stock ECU' rental or loaner for customers that need to take their bike in for warranty service... :)

---

Sebastian, you could do a 'Stock ECU' rental or loaner for customers that need to take their bike in for warranty service... :)

This is actually a really good idea...

---

Sebastian, you could do a 'Stock ECU' rental or loaner for customers that need to take their bike in for warranty service... :)

. Yeah. $900. You get the deposit back when i get my ecu back. You'd need like 2 ecu's of every different model. Expensive startup.

---

Vic, Having an extended warranty provides great piece of mind in case you do have a problem.

I don't make decisions based on "peace of mind". I'll leave that for imbeciles that don't realize that's a marketing term. My decision to purchase the warranty was based purely on the high likely hood of failure resulting in repairs in excess cost of the warranty during the 5 year period. Think of it as speculation, just as in the stock market a person buys/sells stock based partly on financials but also partly on gut.

You're an engineer. You above anyone else here should understand a numbers man. I'm in computer science, not too far removed from your discipline (and no, you don't need to go into how numbers aren't everything...but they mean a shit load especially in financial decisions).

I understand your concern

I can give two shits about "concern" too. Concern has jack shit to do with anything. I get concerned when I have severe diarrhea and can't find a restroom.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 8/29/2014 @ 4:15 PM *

I like the cut of your jib Vic!

Logic

---

You're an engineer. You above anyone else here should understand a numbers man. I'm in computer science, not too far removed from your discipline...

You're an old bike fart and were bikes blowing under you or were they pretty dependable even back then? That [was] a $1000 towards the mod at 'ol bulletproof. Hey, it's only a number.

I get concerned when I have severe diarrhea and can't find a restroom.

Oh shit look! Restroom 9 yards. I got this one, you take the lady's room.

---

Hey Bop, thanks for the offer. I did my independent testing. That's why we tune and flash ecu's. ;)

---

aegisranger

I had a warranty claim when my #3 rod poked through the block with 3,600 miles. The Kawi regional rep came to my dealership and closely examined the bike for any signs of a PC or that the ECU had been removed and flashed. They told me if my ECU was flashed they would deny my warranty claim for the engine. My bike was stock, so they had to cover it under warranty.

Vic, I also got the 4 extra years of warranty. I'd recommend getting a spare ECU on ebay or somewhere and put the flash on that. Put the stock ECU back in if you need warranty repair.

Sebastian, you could do a 'Stock ECU' rental or loaner for customers that need to take their bike in for warranty service... :)

[/quote]

Ouch that sucked aegis, glad you got it covered 3700 miles and a severely blown motor would be very difficult to deal with. That would put the bikes cost alone about $3.50-$4 a mile! That's like Ferrari territory! I appreciate your input, as that pretty much settles the whole "will Kawi care anyway" debate on flashed ECUs. Every website I've been to that sales ECU flashing service states it will void the warranty, but your testimony backs this in the real world, not just hypothetical.

I'm exploring the option now of purchasing another ECU to do the very thing you're recommending. I've got my feelers out a little, trying to expand them. Just want to see where I'm at on cost vs. benefits in ECU vs PCV.

HUB
Once again I have no fucking clue what you're talking about! I don't know shit about turtles, or talking warranties or whatever. (honestly I can't even read that garbage)

Bopropucope
Love the idea of some independent results. Would be great to see some real world results of your PCV dyno test.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 8/29/2014 @ 7:48 PM *

Once again I have no fucking clue what you're talking about! I don't know shit about turtles, or talking warranties or whatever. (honestly I can't even read that garbage)

Once again you wasted your fucking money, because you are concerned about you owning a sailboat and buying wind insurance for it. Honestly, I'm not concerned how you fuck up your AFR. Ain't my fucking bike or wind LOL

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/29/2014 @ 11:17 PM *

---

Once again you wasted your fucking money, because you are concerned about you owning a sailboat and buying wind insurance for it. Honestly, I'm not concerned how you fuck up your AFR. Ain't my fucking bike or wind LOL

Don't hold your breath for an apology, cause it ain't coming. As far as my bike and how I use it, it's pretty clear you'll never get it. I don't stand at counters being lectured with hand puppets. Perhaps your worst flaw is your ego. You've come to believe that your input is vital, and that if I don't listen to you everything is gonna be fucked up. This is a complete and utter joke. I know you won't believe this (your ego won't allow it), but everything's gonna be just fine.

ME: "What oil filter should I use?"
YOU: "Well see here, you got mr filtershit and mr filtergood."
ME: "I've never heard of those brands. Don't you just have OEM, K&N, or Purolator?"
YOU: "...well mr filtershit see he'll screw on but it'll be like taking a burr beaver in the keister. Just half-assed but it'll work if you don't mind oil in your waterfall. But if you take a dive, and you land in the oil, you'll be alright."
ME: "So...you're saying use mr filtershit?"
YOU: "What I'm saying is you can mow the grass and have grass clippings. Or you can mow the grass and not have grass clippings."
ME: "Ok. So you're saying don't use mr filtershit?"
YOU: "If you have a tire, and your lights on, then you're using electricity because the tire is shining in the light. But you couldn't tell the difference if the tire was there or not."
ME (turns around and walks out the door)

Fuck it...keep it.

---

Don't hold your breath for an apology...

That's out in left field. Where is it written I need an apology for giving an opinion?

As far as my bike and how I use it, it's pretty clear you'll never get it.

You're the one in the fog. It's you that does not get it. We've been there and here you come thinking you got this? You're asking questions and it's going right over your head because I'm not going to answer but drag you thru your own questions. You don't get it, do not come crying to me you smell like squid written all over you.

I don't stand at counters being lectured with hand puppets.

You already hand puppet'd a policy you didn't need. So you have a concern there no matter what or you would not have bought.

Perhaps your worst flaw is your ego.

You look at it like I need to apologize to you and I'm giving you a lecture about your own fucking bike I know a little about so I make no apologies I see you are not even close to tuning that bike but throw parts at it and wait for the wind to show up and make you move faster.

You've come to believe that your input is vital, and that if I don't listen to you everything is gonna be fucked up.

Basically. I repaired I don't know how many bikes, listened to assholes like yourself that think you have theory and I have one backup that blows you out of the tub you assholes (not you Vic), but generally that idiot that says "more air' in the cylinder chamber and I'm going to listen to that BS? So, you sir, you can listen to that person tell you the rest of the tuning procedure and here I am with one theory of a vacuum and you can't suck it in to figure it out, do not apologize to me you listened to that fool and now you are stuck in his world with that theory. Everything else tumbles out of theory and I'm being told I'm wrong? Well, that's why it's your bike and your $$$ tune. LOL

This is a complete and utter joke. I know you won't believe this (your ego won't allow it), but everything's gonna be just fine.

Where does an ego come in, I am here with 8 years of 14's being in production and I can't get that many 14's on one hand to find that thru the case event times insurance you think you need. So, here is my ego looking back a few years, come up with the odds and you do not want to talk numbers is it?

You: "What oil filter should I use?"
Me: "Well OEM has standards and your ego is slipping one under the table you go flash and blow."
You: "I've never heard of those brands."
Me: "...well you take an unknown filtershit see and the factory looks at that and declines the warranty because you know the insurance can play games but you open a filter variable up because your cheap ass wants what? A cheaper filter or no issues with the OE? You dumb fuck! You don't get it!
You: "So...you're saying use mr filtershit?"
Me: "What I'm saying is you can set sail in the wind with any fucking filter you choose. It's not my fucking bike you don't get it."
YOU: "Ok. So you're saying don't use mr filtershit?"
ME: "If I have to drag you thru a filtershit analogy and you are clueless because you did not see a ?yes or no? you are lost and it's not my fault you don't have the common sense to see it."
YOU: (turns around and walks out the door) trips over the answer as he leaves, his ego is too big?
ME: Fuck YOU! (under my breath) Ah, I got it. It's your, 'a good deed deserves a _____Fill in the blank.' So basically you are going to bait and switch for the next 4 years and commit fraud (alleged) with this insurance and some flash or pc related damage and now remove it. I see where you're coming from and I said it takes a MAN's EGO to wait out 4 years or go for broke.

You're (alleged) criminal intent is in the way egoofball! YOU GET IT NOW???

Signed,

No matter how I say it, use is going down!

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/30/2014 @ 7:52 AM *

---

PCV vs. Flash

Hmmm, just read through this one. I must admit I'm at a loss to understand why one is compared to the other. Begs the question why is it people think they should be ?

Ok, keeping it simple

PCV is a Tool used to control fuel and does it very well. Dyno-Jet would not exist if their fueling products did not produce solid results. Bankrupt, chapter eleven, Well there would be no company. Agree ?

ECU Flash Can control, Fuel, Timing, Secondary Throttle Plates and last but not least Our Beloved Safety mode. I'm told more coming but have yet to see it.

ECU Flash is the Clear Winner By A long shot. Not sure why there would ever be any debate. Picture below shows what is needed to do the same job with After Market Tools. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Cash wise, ECU Flash clear Winner Again.

Where ECU flash is the clear loser is in the area of control. What you the user can do after the purchase is Nothing !

Dyno-Jet products Clear winner. Not just Dyno-Jet of course.

Now if you believe one flash fits all bikes with any and all mods well then you have made your choice. World is good.

If you are looking for every last ounce of what works on your bike your fuel your elevation with that days AR,,,, well after market allows you the user to adjust to suit your bike

AFR ratio of 14 on the 14R has been shown time and time again to run the fastest down the track. If you all believe your bikes magically are there already there the conversation dies here.

If Not how do we adjust ????? PCV Again $$$$$ or buy your own whoolich software and adjust over and over.

I can do it both ways. On my bike I use PCV to controls my fuel. Just to dame Easy to ignore. Awesome adjust-ability. Dozens options to use. Also I can "Now" we adjust fueling on the fly,,,,, SWEEEEETTTTTTT. Lots of very cool toys.

No matter what page you are on PCV Compared to ECU Flash the only compare should be fueling. PCV you can adjust yourself. Flash is perfect already????? or is it ????

Hope this helps, cheers