I think it's simply the design they've used forever.Hydraulic.The APE really IS the way to go with this deal.No moving parts...stays where it's adjusted.
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Created on: 11/08/14 10:15 PM
Replies: 30
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 20589
RE: Dreaded Rattle is Back!
05/24/15 11:15 PM
It is possible, and good thought, but I really don't think one tooth on the ratchet would be enough for a very audible ratchet, has anyone had a good look at a noisy one? I wouldn't be surprised if there is a failure in the ratchet area, like a rounded or broken pawl.
The teeth are actually quite large and one tooth would definitely make a BIG difference. When adjusting and APE, 1/4 turn makes the dif between quiet and rattle. That's probably about .25 mm so you can imagine how much one tooth with the OEM tensioner makes. Even though the automatic tensioner locks itself from going a notch looser, it still allows some play at whatever tooth it is currently at. Looking at the OEM tensioner, that could be as much as 3 mm.
Here are some pics to show what I'm talking about.
The APE has no spring and no ratchet. The chain tension is adjusted by a simple screw that you lock in place. It can't get looser or tighter, It is always at the exact proper tension. If the chain ever starts to get loose, you'll hear the rattle again and then you would simply screw the tensioner in a tiny bit until the rattle stops, tighten the lock nut and you'r good for another long long time. These can chains don't normally need replacing so they probably do not stretch much from use after the initial wear in period.
Here's the APE for ref.
* Last updated by: Rook on 5/24/2015 @ 11:33 PM *
'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased
OZrevhead
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Joined: 01/11/15
Posts: 150
RE: Dreaded Rattle is Back!
05/25/15 2:36 AM
Thanks rook, I know the ratchet wont make noise but I imagined a very different ratchet mechanism such as in this pic (yes I'm a car mechanic):
What I have seen in these is a rounding of the pawl so the plunger doesn't lock out any more, this results in loss of cam chain tension when there is no oil pressure. This gives the familiar symptom of rattle on startup then the chain goes quiet once oil pressure pumps up.
Your coarse ratchet theory sounds fair and no doubt a manual tensioner is fool-proof. I will get one and chuck it in next service.
OLD GIRL - 2007 Black zx14, Muzzy 4:1, PCV, QS, 1" risers, 165hp so far @ 142,000km, 9.995@142........
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Danno
Location:
Southwestern Illinois
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Posts: 2142
RE: Dreaded Rattle is Back!
05/25/15 3:26 AM
There is no pawl, just a hairpin spring that must be positioned when disassembled for valve lash adjustment and reset with a long rod or screwdriver inserted at an angle through the chain tunnel. A royal pita in any case and it makes the manual cct well worth the expense even it it's not rattling.
* Last updated by: Danno on 5/25/2015 @ 3:27 AM *
'07 CPB Blue; ZGST windscreen with MRA X-screen adjustable spoiler, tube bar adaptor, PC III, ATRE,BMC air filter, modified stock seat with 2nd Look cover,Scorpion Flame Ti slip-ons, Galfer rotors front and rear, braided-stainless lines, C-F 10R front fender, C-F hugger, C-F inner fairing panels, painted foreman's fins with faux C-F inlay, polished rim lips wired for heated gear and accessories, Givi V35 side bags and E41 topcase with SW-Motech qd mounts
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 20589
RE: Dreaded Rattle is Back!
05/25/15 9:23 AM
What I have seen in these is a rounding of the pawl so the plunger doesn't lock out any more, ..
VERY interesting. The pawl is replaced by a simple wire as Danno described and you will see that in the pics too. I've never heard of anyone having this wire slip like a worn pawl might but the spring loaded plunger can still slide in and out pretty much at any given setting. This is likely to happen after the timing chain has stretched a bit from wear because the chain is no longer pushing back against the spring as hard as it did when new. This is not to say that a brand new chain cannot rattle with the OEM tensioner. I've heard complaints of that before, too.
the plunger doesn't lock out any more, this results in loss of cam chain tension when there is no oil pressure.
The OEM tensioner probably suffers from a similar problem. The oil drips off the tensioner after the motor is shut down. The engine is started and the chain spins, pushing the plunger in a bit. The plunger spring is not strong enough to push the unlubed plunger back out to correct the chain tension. The loose chain rattles. The plunger slips forward to tighten the chain once the plunger gets some lubrication going. The rattle stops. This explains why the rattle is less severe or shorter in duration after a an oil change. The oil viscosity has not broken down and the oil sticks to stuff better after the engine is shut down.
reset with a long rod or screwdriver inserted at an angle through the chain tunnel. A royal pita in any case and it makes the manual cct well worth the expense even it it's not rattling.
Yes, and also guarantees most guys are going to install the APE rather than go through all of the work and possible expense involved in resetting that OEM tensioner. The head cover must be removed to properly access the OEM tensioner for resetting it. Head cover gaskets have been known to leak very often on the Gen1. If you don't want that, best to replace the gasket and the rubber cushions under the head cover screws. ~$75. You can get an APE for $60.
* Last updated by: Rook on 5/25/2015 @ 9:34 AM *
'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE Now Deceased
OZrevhead
Location:
Sydney, Australia
Joined: 01/11/15
Posts: 150
RE: Dreaded Rattle is Back!
05/26/15 1:53 AM
The factory tensioner is an interesting design but as you said it's not worth the hassle to reset it etc.
* Last updated by: OZrevhead on 5/26/2015 @ 1:54 AM *
OLD GIRL - 2007 Black zx14, Muzzy 4:1, PCV, QS, 1" risers, 165hp so far @ 142,000km, 9.995@142........
NEW BABY - 2014 Green/Black ZX14R, Two Bros slip-ons, PCV, Dynojet QS, 1" risers, Sargent seat, Brocks clutch kit, 206 HP on dyno
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